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Divinesoteriology
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Next to Martin Luther, John Calvin is usually regarded as the most important figure in the Reformation. On the subject of forensic justification Calvin stated: “Man is not made righteous in justification, but is accepted as righteous, not on account of his own righteousness, but on account of the righteousness of Christ located outside of man.”101 The reason human beings need justification is that they are “totally depraved.” This Reformed doctrine has been misunderstood by some Protestants as well as Roman Catholics. The Reformed view is that although humans are lost, they are not nothing. On the one hand, “In constructing a Christian anthropology, we must not ignore the basic nobility of man.” On the other hand, “There is a glaring contrast between what man is truly and essentially and what he has become. Because man lives in opposition to his own God-given nature, his present nature signifies an existence in contradiction.”102
Reformed theology teaches that total depravity involves several aspects. First, corruption is present at the center of our being. Second, depravity has extended to every aspect of humanity: physical, social, and spiritual. Third, it prevents us from being able to please God unless enabled by grace. Fourth, depravity extends to every corner and culture of the human race.103 Total depravity does not mean that human beings are destitute of all natural goodness; the imago Dei has been “effaced” but not “erased.” This is often misunderstood by Catholics. For example, Karl Keating—who ordinarily is quite careful and precise in his criticisms—writes concerning Calvin’s understanding of the natural person and his or her works: “Your own acts are entirely worthless. Everything you do is worthless. Reason is unavailing since it can’t bring you closer to God. Worse, everything you do is a sin.”104 However, Calvin (along with the other Reformers) was too careful an exegete not to be aware of Jesus’ statement: “If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in Heaven give the holy Spirit to those who ask him?” (Luke 11:13).105 Calvin acknowledged that people can do good socially and horizontally, but spiritually they are dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1) and can initiate no meritorious action toward God on behalf of their sinful condition. They can receive eternal life by faith and faith alone.

Early Princeton Calvinistic theologian Charles Hodge indicates that sin has predisposed humanity against any move toward God and his salvation. Hence, “Every man should bow down before God under the humiliating consciousness that he is a member of an apostate race; the son of a rebellious parent; born estranged from God, and exposed to his displeasure.”106 Likewise, for Calvin, the need for justification follows from the spiritual reality of total depravity, that is, our total inability to initiate or attain salvation. This justification is judicial, or forensic, in nature. Küng defines the term justification as “a declaring just. It really implies a declaring just, in the sense of a leaving out of the account, a not imputing.”107 In the Old Testament, David put it this way: “Happy is he whose fault is taken away, whose sin is covered. Happy the man to whom the Lord imputes not guilt” (Ps. 32:1–2). In the New Testament, Paul said that “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Cor. 5:19). A contemporary Lutheran scholar has put it thusly: “Justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone is the absolute truth by which the church stands or falls. It is this truth that makes Christianity Christian and the church really the church, preserving it from idolatry, preventing its secularization, providing the charter of its career, and offering believers a solid basis and direction for their daily life.”108

As we have shown, these valuable insights into the doctrine of justification had been largely lost throughout much of Christian history, and it was the Reformers who recovered this biblical truth. And although some contemporary Catholics are beginning to acknowledge the Protestant contribution of forensic justification, it was not spelled out by the Council of Trent. Indeed, while there may be no logical incompatibility of forensic justification with the Roman Catholic concept of initial justification, there are serious problems with the Catholic concept of progressive justification. In short, in spite of its insistence on the need for grace, it is a system of works based on merit that tends to negate in practice what has been affirmed in theory about (initial) justification by grace apart from works.



101 McGrath, Iustitia Dei, 2:36.

102 Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, vol. 1 (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1978), p. 89.

103 Ibid., p. 90.

104 Karl Keating, What Catholics Really Believe: Setting the Record Straight (Ann Arbor: Servant Publications, 1992), p. 102.

105 Bloesch also comments on the Reformed doctrine of common grace: “It is not only the imago Dei but also the common grace of God that accounts for sinful man’s ability to arrive at a modicum of justice” (Essentials of Evangelical Theology, 1:91).

106 Ibid., p. 92.

107 Küng, Justification, p. 212.

108 Braaten, Justification, p. 82.

Geisler, Norman L. ; MacKenzie, Ralph E.: Roman Catholics and Evangelicals : Agreements and Differences. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1995, S. 246

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Sin Nature
ronathanedwards
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Boy is this confusing. I think to start a thread on depravity, you might want to get it from a Theology book and not a book from an Arminian's view point of the differences between Protestants and Catholics based on intrinsic vs. forensic justification.

Good ol' Norm. It was this very book that I started to see not only the differences between Reformers and Catholics, but seeing the inconstancies of Norm's understandings of the protestants that lead me to reformed theology.

I was an assisting pastor at Calvary Chapel St. Paul and taught a class on this book (since we had allot of ex-catholics in the church). Yet the foundation of the reformation was the depravity of man and how Grace effected him. What caused the difference between Luther and the RC church was "IF God gave grace to many (regeneration WAS what was 'gracious')"  vs the RC church view of prevenient grace "which is God gives the same amount of grace to all and the difference is if man exercises faith (which means there is a small amount of "righteousness" left in man, in order that he may "freely" respond to the call by himself). 

Norm tries to slant/bias the history because he knows this would effect (and he would have to defend his position academically)  what the reader knows of the historical debate and would see that Norm actually in his theology defends the Catholic position. So he slants the debate away from the "initial point" of justification and tries to focus the reader on focusing on the forensic/intrinsic debate of justification. This is sad. Don't you find it alarming and a "tell" that this part was to talk about "depravity" yet it ends with Norm talking about how the reformers and Catholics "agreed" on "initial" justification (which in actuality is incorrect) but differed in "progressive justification? I thought this was about "depravity"? Hmmm ... that should clue you in that Norm is deflecting something.

Norm wants to agree with the protestants in his profession, but in anthropology, in the most fundamental form, he agrees with the Catholic Church, that is, man is given grace in order that he may freely choose God. Therefore he is not "totally depraved (dead) but has been given some "prevenient grace" in order to choose. THAT is what the reformation was all about.





Edited by ronathanedwards : February 12, 2010, 12:03 pm

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Sin Nature
Divinesoteriology
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards February 12, 2010, 11:30 am
Boy is this confusing. I think to start a thread on depravity, you might want to get it from a Theology book and not a book from an Arminian's view point of the differences between Protestants and Catholics based on intrinsic vs. forensic justification.

Good ol' Norm. It was this very book that I started to see not only the differences between Reformers and Catholics, but seeing the inconstancies of Norm's understandings of the protestants that lead me to reformed theology.

I was an assisting pastor at Calvary Chapel St. Paul and taught a class on this book (since we had allot of ex-catholics in the church). Yet the foundation of the reformation was the depravity of man and how Grace effected him. What caused the difference between Luther and the RC church was "IF God gave grace to many (regeneration WAS what was 'gracious')"  vs the RC church view of prevenient grace "which is God gives the same amount of grace to all and the difference is if man exercises faith (which means there is a small amount of "righteousness" left in man, in order that he may "freely" respond to the call by himself). 

Norm tries to slant/bias the history because he knows this would effect (and he would have to defend his position academically)  what the reader knows of the historical debate and would see that Norm actually in his theology defends the Catholic position. So he slants the debate away from the "initial point" of justification and tries to focus the reader on focusing on the forensic/intrinsic debate of justification. This is sad. Don't you find it alarming and a "tell" that this part was to talk about "depravity" yet it ends with Norm talking about how the reformers and Catholics "agreed" on "initial" justification (which in actuality is incorrect) but differed in "progressive justification? I thought this was about "depravity"? Hmmm ... that should clue you in that Norm is deflecting something.

Norm wants to agree with the protestants in his profession, but in anthropology, in the most fundamental form, he agrees with the Catholic Church, that is, man is given grace in order that he may freely choose God. Therefore he is not "totally depraved (dead) but has been given some "prevenient grace" in order to choose. THAT is what the reformation was all about.





Sorry brother, I am not seeing your argument as valid. You seem to be arguing that regeneration precedes faith. However Calvin taught faith precedes regeneration. So are you saying Calvin taught prevenient grace ? Calvin was the one to stress "effaced but not erased". Calvin taught that their was a spark left in man after the fall. This spark is that which makes man seek truth. Although this spark was marred by the fall it was not erased.


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Sin Nature
ronathanedwards
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CM:
Bro, you got to work on being able to make partial quotes.... it would be cool.

The argument is VERY valid and historically accurate.

You're argument however is non-sequiter.

First of all, we are talking about what the difference was between LUTHER and the Roman church. This was before Calvin, therefore bringing up Calvin is illogical.

Secondly, I think you should read allot of Calvin (not people who talk about Calvin) and understand him in own setting. Maybe even take a class about him.  Calvin's works were mostly (especially the institutes) were pastoral. Many terms that he used were generalized and interchanged. There are many examples of him doing so. There are many examples where he was specific and the terms are defined and not just used. It is like that with the Bible also. You can not take generalized terms, imply meaning into them and ignore other texts where those terms are explicitly defined.

Calvin did not believe that faith preceded regeneration. Sorry, you are looking at texts were he was generalizing the term regeneration. Which in many circumstances he used to refer to the whole salvation AND justification AND Sanctification process.

"However Calvin taught faith precedes regeneration. So are you saying Calvin taught prevenient grace ? "

Ummm ... You are contradicting yourself. If you think Calvin taught faith before regeneration, that IS THE DEFINITION of the OUTCOME of prevenient Grace.

I think you might want to look at what prevenient Grace is. It is the doctrine that is needed in order to justify the faith before regeneration viewpoint.

You have Calvin believing in faith before regeneration but going against prevenient grace, this is absolutely incoherent.

It has been established by Calvin himself that prevenient grace is needed in order to hold to the view of decisional regeneration.

There are only two camps to this issue:
prevenient grace in order to support faith before regeneration
VS
irresistible grace in order to support regeneration before faith.

You ask me the question "Did Calvin teach prevenient grace"?

My answer: Of coarse not. Why? Because he believed in regeneration before faith.

Do you have information about the reformation by REFORMERS and not by their opponents? Considering it is THEIR history? It seems like you are heavily relying on Norm Geisler. He is good on many ereas, but severely flawed and grossly ignorant of the reformed theology and history.
Remember:
Proverbs 18:17 (ESV)
17 The one who states his case first seems right,
until the other comes and examines him.





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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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Sin Nature
Divinesoteriology
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
CM:
Bro, you got to work on being able to make partial quotes.... it
would be cool.


I already sent you a P.m. with a link to video showing you how to do it.

Quote
The argument is VERY valid and historically accurate.You're argument
however is non-sequiter. First of all, we are talking about what the
difference was between LUTHER and the Roman church. This was before
Calvin, therefore bringing up Calvin is illogical


Actually we were talking about original reformed theology as a whole. Look at the first post Calvin was mentioned. Non sequitur argument is invalid.

Quote
Secondly, I think you should read allot of Calvin (not people who talk
about Calvin) and understand him in own setting. Maybe even take a class
about him.  Calvin's works were mostly (especially the institutes) were
pastoral. Many terms that he used were generalized and interchanged.
There are many examples of him doing so. There are many examples where
he was specific and the terms are defined and not just used. It is like
that with the Bible also. You can not take generalized terms, imply
meaning into them and ignore other texts where those terms are
explicitly defined.



I have taken a class on Calvin. It was from Covenant Seminary. Calvin did hold faith precedes regeneration. You can take a look at his commentaries also. Look at the passages that deal with regeneration (specific passages) you will see what I mean

Quote
Calvin did not believe that faith preceded regeneration. Sorry, you are
looking at texts were he was generalizing the term regeneration. Which
in many circumstances he used to refer to the whole salvation AND
justification AND Sanctification process.



There are clear passages... John 1:13

It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by
making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the contrary, it is an
effect of faith, and therefore ought to be placed later.
I reply, that
both statements perfectly agree; because by faith we receive the incorruptible
seed
, (1 Peter 1:23,) by which we are born again to a new and
            divine life. And yet faith itself is a work of the Holy Spirit, who
dwells in none but the children of God. So then, in various respects,
faith is a part of our regeneration, and an entrance into the kingdom of
God, that he may reckon us among his children. The illumination of our
minds by the Holy Spirit belongs to our renewal, and thus faith flows
from regeneration as from its source; but since it is by the same faith
that we receive Christ, who sanctifies us by his Spirit, on that account
it is said to be the beginning of our adoption. - John Calvin

Calvin agrees that faith precedes regeneration. He expounds on it faith flows from regeneration as far as our enlightenment. One may also call enlightenment (renewal or regeneration). As he goes on the say that the same faith that flows from our illumination it is that faith that we receive Christ and are adopted. Of course being adopted also means to be regenerated and to be justified. They are not mutually exclusive.

He then furthered the argument
"Another solution, still more plain and easy, may be offered; for when
the Lord breathes faith into us, he regenerates us by some method that
is hidden and unknown to us; but after we have received faith, we
perceive, by a lively feeling of conscience, not only the grace of
adoption, but also newness of life and the other gifts of the Holy
Spirit. For since faith, as we have said, receives Christ, it puts us in
possession, so to speak, of all his blessings. Thus so far as respects our sense, it is only after having believed — that we begin to be the sons of God.
But if the inheritance of eternal life is the fruit of adoption, we see how the
Evangelist ascribes the whole of our salvation to the grace of Christ
alone; and, indeed, how closely soever men examine themselves, they will
find nothing that is worthy of the children of God, except what Christ
has bestowed on them."-John Calvin





Edited by Divinesoteriology : February 13, 2010, 1:01 pm

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Sin Nature
ronathanedwards
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I noticed that you didn't quote the the passage before that... let me help you out.

Nor of human decision or a husband’s will. I think these two phrases mean the same thing, for I do not see why human decision should signify “woman” (as many, following Augustine, suppose). The evangelist is rather repeating the same thing in different words, so as to impress and fix it more deeply on our minds. And although he is thinking specifically of the Jews, who gloried in the flesh, a general doctrine can be learned from this verse: we are reckoned the children of God not on account of our own nature, nor from our initiative, but because “he chose to give us birth” (James 1:18), from undeserved love. Hence it follows, first, that faith is not produced by us but is the fruit of spiritual new birth. For the evangelist says that no one can believe except he who is born of God. Therefore faith is a heavenly gift. Moreover, faith is not cold and bare knowledge, for no one can believe unless he is born again by the Spirit of God.

Notice how Calvin loosly uses "spiritual new birth" (regeneration in other translations) " begotten of God, and "born again" (renewed in better translations).

You have to understand Calvins interplay to understand him.

What Calvin is trying to say in what YOU cited in the following paragraph is that the action of regeneration happens at the same time, and faith produces the renewing of the believer in sanctification (or as Calvin also calls further renewal or abiding regeneration).

Maybe this video clip from my pastor will help explain it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPzSKI6jvY&annotation_id=annotation_306275&feature=iv






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Sin Nature
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
The will of the flesh and the will of man appear to me to mean the same thing; for I see no reason why flesh should be supposed to signify woman, as Augustine and many others explain it On the contrary, the Evangelist repeats the same thing in a variety of words, in order to explain it more fully, and impress it more deeply on the minds of men. Though he refers directly to the Jews, who gloried in the flesh, yet from this passage a general doctrine may be obtained: that our being reckoned the sons of God does not belong to our nature, and does not proceed from us, but because God begat us willingly, (James 1:18,) that is, from undeserved love. Hence it follows, first, that faith does not proceed from ourselves, but is the fruit of spiritual regeneration (illumination); for the Evangelist affirms that no man can believe, unless he be begotten of God; and therefore faith is a heavenly gift. It follows, secondly, that faith is not bare or cold knowledge, since no man can believe who has not been renewed by the Spirit of God.

( Calvin uses the term  “the fruit of spiritual regeneration. By this he means illumination. He explains it in the next paragraph)


It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be placed later. I reply, that both statements perfectly agree; because by faith we receive the incorruptible seed, (1 Peter 1:23,) by which we are born again to a new and divine life. And yet faith itself is a work of the Holy Spirit, who dwells in none but the children of God. So then, in various respects, faith is a part of our regeneration, and an entrance into the kingdom of God, that he may reckon us among his children. The illumination of our minds by the Holy Spirit belongs to our renewal, and thus faith flows from regeneration as from its source; but since it is by the same faith that we receive Christ, who sanctifies us by his Spirit, on that account it is said to be the beginning of our adoption.

(So here Calvin takes the two views (regeneration precedes faith) (faith precedes regeneration), and says both views can be reconciled. Faith flows from regeneration because the regeneration that is being spoken of is illumination. However regeneration flows from faith because it is that faith that we are sanctified by the Spirit (this is another term for being born again) he also says (because by faith we receive the incorruptible seed, (1 Peter 1:23,) by which we are born again to a new and divine life)

This is exactly what I believe except, I do not use the term regeneration for illumination. It confuses people.

The order of Divine Soteriology that I see presented in the scriptures is
1.    Drawing / Illumination (God draws us to him by the Word and the Holy Spirit) this word must be opened to us hence the need for illumination. (John 6:44- 1 Corinthians 2:14-15)
2.    Faith takes place the gospel is received. It is to as many as received him
3.    Justification, regeneration, and adoption occur. All three terms speak of the doctrine of conversion.
4.    Sanctification takes place. We are being conformed into His image, (purified)
5.    Glorification occurs. We see him as he is …



Edited by Divinesoteriology : February 14, 2010, 2:43 pm

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Sin Nature
ronathanedwards
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ummm John 6:44/1 Cor ?

Where does it say that they are illuminated in either verse?
Where does it say that everyone is drawn in John 6?

The giving in vs 37 of the father to the son results in those who come.
They can not come unless the father draws them.

There are positive and negative universals that restrict the groups. Not all are drawn for salvation. Also the syntax in 37 gives you a major problem also.

Those that the father gives (present tense) will come (future tense) the result of the coming is the giving by the father.  Coupled with the universal stipulation (ALL that the father gives me (action) WILL come to me (result).

The one the father Gives to the Son (election) are then drawn (dragged)  by the father to enable them to come. And the result of the coming is being raised to eternal life WITH Christ.

The Father did not give every single person to Christ. Because it say "ALL that the father gives WILL COME." Has everybody in the world come to christ? Then all haven't come and all haven't been drawn.  Because he only draws those who will be raised for salvation and the ones who are saved are the ones who come and the ones who come are the ones who have been drawn and the ones drawn are the ones who have been given.

I noticed that the main verse speaking of regeneration you didn't even bring up.
1 John 5:1

I posted on the parallels before on this verse and no one answered it.
You must answer the syntax problem between the present tense and the perfect tense. One IS the cause of the other.

I will post again on the "saved to believe" thread.



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Sin Nature
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
Where does it say that they are illuminated in either verse?


Who is they ?

Quote
Where does it say that everyone is drawn in John 6?


Nowhere in John 6 that I am aware of.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ” (John 12:32, KJV)
Quote
The giving in vs 37 of the father to the son results in those who come.

They can not come unless the father draws them.

Your right, the ones given do come to him, and are raised up on the last day. From John 12:32 we see that all are drawn. However it is only those that have been given, and are drawn that will be raised up.
Quote

I noticed that the main verse speaking of regeneration you didn't
even bring up.
1 John 5:1

That is not a prescriptive text. It speaks of those who have been regenerated. Not how one is regenerated.







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ronathanedwards
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Quote
Nowhere in John 6 that I am aware of.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ” (John 12:32, KJV)


John 12 is a completely different context. It is talking about the Gentiles that were now going after him.

Secondly, ALL that believe have to be given by the father? In vs 37 what is the CAUSE of Belief? The father has to GIVE it to them.

John 6:65  THIS (their unbelief) is why I said no one can come to me unless it has been GIVEN to them by the father.


1 John 5:1 IS relevant, you are not being honest with exegesis.

The trinity is proven that way. John 1:1 is not explicit about the one being and three persons in God. It is derived from the text. The Spirit can say the theme of the letter and by the use of the grammar point out other true things at the same time. Plus it still is parallel with the other verses.

Jesus said that God said "I am the God of Abraham Isaac and jacob, he is the God of the living and not the dead". Yet in the o.t. passage, God wasn't saying that to prove that he was the God of the living. He was making a completely different point. Yet Jesus uses the GRAMMAR of the text to proof an entirely different point.

Besides that, the whole point of 1 John is the EVIDENCE of those that are born again. That was my point. So not only is it relative, it is paramount to understand.

Main theme: Evidence that you HAVE BEEN born again.

You overcome the world, believe, love the brother.

It is also obvious that John would not lead you to believe, and am sure he was AMAZINGLY careful not to make people think that this was a "to do" list in order to think they were saved. How could he have clarified it?  Oh yes.... THE GRAMMAR.

You are in error Mod Cal. 1 John 5:1 is VERY relevant. You just don't want to come to grips with it. It's o.k. it took John Piper, R.C. Sproul, MacArthur, and I many years to wrestle with it, till we just acknowledged what grammar demanded from us and what tradition blinded us to.


Edited by ronathanedwards : February 17, 2010, 8:25 am

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Sin Nature
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote

John 12 is a completely different context. It is talking about the Gentiles that were now going after him.


Different context ? Let me just work with the first part of your assertion. I was taking a look at my syntax, and found that you have err. Verse 12 is in the same sentence as verse 13.

But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right to become God’s children – children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God. ” (John 1:9–14, NET)

Board Image




Edited by Divinesoteriology : February 18, 2010, 7:17 pm

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ronathanedwards
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First of all, I'm talking about John CHAPTER TWELVE, not verse twelve.

Secondly, if you notice Cascadia has verse 13 being used as a verbal clause that is lead by a Board Image"oi" it is a proposition that introduces something explicit. It is talking about those who "receive" and what is the explicit information concerning them? That their belief wasn't because of their will (man's), neither the will of the flesh, but it was BECAUSE of God's will.

How many years of Greek do you know? If you haven't had at least 2 years, I advise you to be VERY, VERY careful in using Lexicons and Syntax Analysis.

P.S.
I am still having problems cutting and pasting.

AND

How did you create that pic of that graph in order to put it on the web?
There is nothing in the file menu to create a snapshot is there?




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Sin Nature
Divinesoteriology
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
First of all, I'm talking about John CHAPTER TWELVE, not verse twelve.


I see.. The context of John 1:12-13 still stands. We are talking about a logical contrast sentence. One of which verse 12-13 are comprised of.

The (as many as) recieved him. Are the same ones (who believed in his name) are the same ones (he gave the right to become children of God) etc.

Quote
I am still having problems cutting and pasting.




It will not work from word for some reason. Ms word processor work though.

Quote
How did you create that pic of that graph in order to put it on the web?

There is nothing in the file menu to create a snapshot is there?




I uploaded the image to tiny pic, then copy and pasted the code into my response
Board Image


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ronathanedwards
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We are discussing this on another thread (bible translations). I will stop posting there and stay here.

Here's what I said (concerning JOhn 1:12-13:

I understand if you go by the English, you might get a sense that there
is a temporal understanding to this verse. But there isn't one. In the
Greek those who received him  and the ones God gave the right to be
children of God are both in the aorist tense. Those who believe (present
tense)



There are three huge reasons why it is NOT clear whatsoever. One,
grammatically they are both in the Aorist tense therefore there is no
temporal meaning given at all. (Which tells me you are going from the
English) If you want to PUSH a temporal meaning, the act of receiving
and God giving the right would somehow happen BEFORE the "believing"
(present tense), but this is forcing temporal meanings (where in this
context, the Greek grammar does not allow it) , so the point is mute,
either way, your point is not correct.



Secondly, what God is giving is the "right" to be "CHILDREN of God"
this is a TITLE of adoption, this isn't even talking about being
"regenerated". John isn't talking about "born of God". It isn't
consistent with John's terminology. The word when speaking of
"regeneration" (gennaw) isn't even mentioned in the text. You are
forcing meanings that are not there, bro.



Thirdly, you are missing the REASON of WHY/HOW the receiving,
believing and adoption is even taking place. The reason is given in vs.
13. It is the WILL OF GOD, NOT MAN. It is NOT BY MAN'S WILL.  THAT is an
explicit term.



Edited by ronathanedwards : February 21, 2010, 12:20 pm

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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Sin Nature
Divinesoteriology
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
We are discussing this on another thread (bible translations). I will stop posting there and stay here.


here is the link to my response.
http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=2

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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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