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Divinesoteriology
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
There are many verses that speak of atonement for the elect. There are also many verses that speak of atonement for all.

E.G.
John 1:29 (King James Version)29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

One can say he died for the world, because the world includes the elect, but the elect does not include the world. Some may say if he takes away the sins of the world then all will be saved. That would be a true assumption if one does not look at atonement as two fold. While Christ's death actually atones for sin, it is never applied apart from faith. Christ died for the whole world, but the whole world will not be saved because atonement is only applied to ones account by faith.





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Atonement
eternally-gratefull
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Quote From : Divinesoteriology March 7, 2010, 7:21 pm
There are many verses that speak of atonement for the elect. There are also many verses that speak of atonement for all.

E.G.
John 1:29 (King James Version)29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

One can say he died for the world, because the world includes the elect, but the elect does not include the world. Some may say if he takes away the sins of the world then all will be saved. That would be a true assumption if one does not look at atonement as two fold. While Christ's death actually atones for sin, it is never applied apart from faith. Christ died for the whole world, but the whole world will not be saved because atonement is only applied to ones account by faith.





I agree in part.

he did atone for all sin, In fact scripture states he propitiated ( satisfied Gods wrath) not only our ( the elect ) sins, but the sins of the whole world.

there sin will be forgiven them,, there one sin will not. the sin he did not make atonement for.

they will be condemned for unbelief, not for personal sin. Hitler's sins were atoned for. If he repented and came to Christ he would be saved, If he did not, he will not suffer damnation for the murders he committed, but for rejecting the holy spirit and the conviction and word he came to share with us.. namely Christ.
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Atonement
Divinesoteriology
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Quote
I agree in part.



he did atone for all sin, In fact scripture states he propitiated (
satisfied Gods wrath) not only our ( the elect ) sins, but the sins of
the whole world.



there sin will be forgiven them,, there one sin will not. the sin he did not make atonement for.



they will be condemned for unbelief, not for personal sin. Hitler's
sins were atoned for. If he repented and came to Christ he would be
saved, If he did not, he will not suffer damnation for the murders he
committed, but for rejecting the holy spirit and the conviction and
word he came to share with us.. namely Christ.


I have heard that understanding before, but I did not receive it based on other scriptures. Check these out and see what you think

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. ” (Revelation 20:12, NET)

For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. ” (Romans 2:12, NET)

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. ” (Matthew 16:27, NET)
It is a sin to deny the Holy Spirit, it is blaspheme. What these texts seem to say is that unbelievers will be judged by their sins. I believe it is becuase it was not applied to their account, because they did not believe.






Edited by Divinesoteriology : March 9, 2010, 4:48 pm

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Atonement
eternally-gratefull
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Quote From : Divinesoteriology March 9, 2010, 3:55 pm


I have heard that understanding before, but I did not receive it based on other scriptures. Check these out and see what you think

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. ” (Revelation 20:12, NET)



I believe that since all sin was paid for by Christ. No sin is going to be judged here, I believe what is being put forth is so called "works" for it is all an unbeliever has to stand on.

It is much like a believer will be judged for their works. and rewarded. The difference is an unbeliever will not be rewarded, just told their works do not add up to allow them to earn salvation.

Also, the reason they are sent to outer darkness is what?? is it from what was written in those books? or that they were not written in the book of life? I think it is that they were not written in the book of life.. why? they rejected the one work which could save them.. the one done by Christ.

Quote From : Divinesoteriology March 9, 2010, 3:55 pm

For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. ” (Romans 2:12, NET)



What does scripture say the law was? a tutor to bring us to Christ. The people who did not have the law are just as guilty of those who were given the law. They still had enough knowledge to believe, Those who have the law are condemned because they did nto do what the law was supposed to do. Bring them to Christ.

Quote From : Divinesoteriology March 9, 2010, 3:55 pm

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. ” (Matthew 16:27, NET)


I believe this is speaking of the reward given to his believers. Not to the unbelievers.

Quote From : Divinesoteriology March 9, 2010, 3:55 pm

It is a sin to deny the Holy Spirit, it is blaspheme. What these texts seem to say is that unbelievers will be judged by their sins. I believe it is becuase it was not applied to their account, because they did not believe.






If Christ made propitiation for all sin, including the sin of those who do not believe, how can they be judged again for the sins Christ already propitiated? This does not make sense.


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Atonement
Divinesoteriology
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
If Christ made propitiation for all sin, including the sin of those who
do not believe, how can they be judged again for the sins Christ
already propitiated? This does not make sense.


But faith is the condition for receiving the propitiation to our account. Hitler had his sins paid for, but there was a condition to be covered by that propitiation (faith). So even though God paid his bail, he rejected it. He decided to stay in prison and pay for his sin. It not that he is paying for his sin twice, it was never applied in the first place.


Edited by Divinesoteriology : March 9, 2010, 5:35 pm

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Atonement
DwayneS1988
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It seems most people are confusing propitiation/expiation with justification.

A man can still be judged for his sins even in the universal view, because he has not been declared righteous.

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Atonement
eternally-gratefull
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Quote From : DwayneS1988 March 20, 2010, 11:49 am
It seems most people are confusing propitiation/expiation with justification.

A man can still be judged for his sins even in the universal view, because he has not been declared righteous.



Yes, they can not be taken together, Propitiation is what allows justification (declared innocent of guilt or declaired righteous)  for without propitiation there would never be justification.

But as DS said. In order to receive the result of propitiation and be justified,, you must have faith..
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Atonement
DwayneS1988
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Quote From : eternally-gratefull March 20, 2010, 12:02 pm
Quote From : DwayneS1988 March 20, 2010, 11:49 am
It seems most people are confusing propitiation/expiation with justification.

A man can still be judged for his sins even in the universal view, because he has not been declared righteous.



Yes, they can not be taken together, Propitiation is what allows justification (declared innocent of guilt or declaired righteous)  for without propitiation there would never be justification.

But as DS said. In order to receive the result of propitiation and be justified,, you must have faith..



Of course. You receive justification by faith. You are not justified until you believe.

The point is that people who go to hell, go there for there sins. Jesus may have paid for the word's sins, but his atonement does not apply to you unless you receive it by faith.

This whole "Jesus paid for every sin but one" bit does not make sense. Jesus obtained eternal salvation. And it is applied to everyone who believes.
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Atonement
eternally-gratefull
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Quote From : DwayneS1988 March 20, 2010, 1:29 pm
Quote From : eternally-gratefull March 20, 2010, 12:02 pm
Quote From : DwayneS1988 March 20, 2010, 11:49 am
It seems most people are confusing propitiation/expiation with justification.

A man can still be judged for his sins even in the universal view, because he has not been declared righteous.



Yes, they can not be taken together, Propitiation is what allows justification (declared innocent of guilt or declaired righteous)  for without propitiation there would never be justification.

But as DS said. In order to receive the result of propitiation and be justified,, you must have faith..



Of course. You receive justification by faith. You are not justified until you believe.

The point is that people who go to hell, go there for there sins. Jesus may have paid for the word's sins, but his atonement does not apply to you unless you receive it by faith.

This whole "Jesus paid for every sin but one" bit does not make sense. Jesus obtained eternal salvation. And it is applied to everyone who believes.


why is it applied to everyone who believes?  Because they believed, They did not die in unbelief,, and because of this they were passed from death to life (regenerated)'

No one is going to hell because they commit murder. They go to hell because they rejected the son of God.

John 3:18 (NKJV)18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

They are not condemned because they lied, cheated stealed commited adultry etc etc.
they are condemned because they did not believe in Christ.

which brings us to another point. if those who believe are made alive because they are justified. How can regeneration precede justification??






Edited by eternally-gratefull : March 20, 2010, 2:41 pm
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