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 Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture (36 Replies, Read 2429 times)
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # February 19, 2010, 7:37 pm
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption 		So many different views concerning eschatology, does the rapture occur ? If the rapture does occur when does it occur? I am personally  pre-trib rapture. It seems the only consistent understanding. If it were anything else we could know the date, and time. Jesus clearly said no man know the day or the hour.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 11:47 am | Post: 1
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You are basing this with a "given" that there is a "seven year" time table.
If that view isn't correct, your premise is faulty and the other views could be logically supportable.

For me as I stand right now, I am an amillianialist.But am still open to and study other views. The one I know best is the pre-trib pre mill view but have found that to be very unsupportable the more I study the genre and usage of language of "prophetic" writings.

By the way, just food for thought. The earliest manuscript has the number of the beast as 616  and not 666. LOL

Also, in the side margins of a manuscript next to the "beast" in revelation they have "NERO". ... Interesting....

For good cross examination, concerning amill thought here's a good site.
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/




Edited by ronathanedwards : March 1, 2010, 11:57 am

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 5:50 pm | Post: 2
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 1, 2010, 11:47 am
You are basing this with a "given" that there is a "seven year" time table.
If that view isn't correct, your premise is faulty and the other views could be logically supportable.

For me as I stand right now, I am an amillianialist.But am still open to and study other views. The one I know best is the pre-trib pre mill view but have found that to be very unsupportable the more I study the genre and usage of language of "prophetic" writings.

By the way, just food for thought. The earliest manuscript has the number of the beast as 616  and not 666. LOL

Also, in the side margins of a manuscript next to the "beast" in revelation they have "NERO". ... Interesting....

For good cross examination, concerning amill thought here's a good site.
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/


So you believe we are ruling and raining with Christ right now ? If this is the millennial kingdom I hate to see what heaven is like.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 6:30 pm | Post: 3
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Your statement really doesn't make sense. In the pre-trib pre mill view (dispensational), even in THAT scenario you have people still rejecting Christ, and even starting up a war against Him. So I can say the same thing to you. If that is kingdom, I'd hate to see what heaven is like.....

You also have major regula fidei issues of the history of the church. Not some, not many, but ALL of the church fathers held to the view that the church would at least be on earth in the presence the anti-christ. This does not prove post trib or amil (if anything it supports strongly pre-wrath view), BUT it does pose quite a problem for pre-tribbers.
So, putting barbs aside.

I don't know if you ever heard of a web-cast called "Iron Sharpens Iron" out of Long Island. It is EXCELLENT and the jist of the show is it has on differing views concerning doctrines. Sometimes they have on-air debates but it is usually one view per show type stuff. I think you would like it allot.

I especially mention this considering just last week they had "eschatology" week. I'll see if I can find the link. I hope you have an ipod.

They have it so you can stream it also, it looks like. Here's the link.

http://sharpens.blogspot.com/

Just to let you know, the host is Calvinistic, but that doesn't come out to much unless the show is about the doctrines of Grace. But they obviously have on Arminians also. Then He just plays the role of a host.

ALSO, if you call in to ask a question, first time callers get a FREE leather-bound NASB Bible !!!


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 7:37 pm | Post: 4
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
Your statement really doesn't make sense. In the pre-trib pre mill view
(dispensational), even in THAT scenario you have people still rejecting
Christ, and even starting up a war against Him. So I can say the same
thing to you. If that is kingdom, I'd hate to see what heaven is
like.....


Rev 20 say's we are ruling and reigning with Christ for 100 years. Some amill. say that we are in that 1000. Some say that it is not a literal 1000 years. I would assume you would take the prior interpretation. That was on the basis that you believe hermeneutics is the proper way to interpret the bible. I hope you dont believe that Rev. is allegory... It is kinda like saying I take the bible literally except the book of Revelations.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 9:07 pm | Post: 5
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It says we reign and rule...BUT what happens IN that reign and rule? People rage against the King, Satan deceives them they FIGHT against him (or try to) like I said, that isn't a perfect picture either.

One of the first rules of hermeneutics is what? The explicit confines the implicit.
What is the other? The intention of the author.
One of the steps you use to know the authors intention is by knowing what genre the writer placing himself in. This is a VITAL step in the process of LITERAL interpretation.

Literal interpretation confuses those who don't practice hermeneutics. They think it means a wooden/strict word for word meaning. This is NOT what literal interpretation means.

Literal interpretation puts a heavy emphasis on referential of the words of the text. It does not deny however the proper and important place of idioms, figures of speech (allegory, metaphors and especially GENRE.

It isn't that Revelation is "allegorical" or "literal". That isn't the first step to understand it. The first step is Who is the Author, To whom is it written, what was the culture of those the letter is written to. What is the GENRE of the letter. How would it have been understood by those to whom it was ORIGINALLY written to.

Was this apocalyptic or is it proverbial? Poetry? Historical? Doctrinal?  These questions must be asked in order to shape your focus on understanding the authors intentions and meanings.  .... etc... etc....

So a better question would be: What IS the literal interpretation of Revelation? Is it narrative? Apocalyptic? Prophetic? Historical? 


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 9:19 pm | Post: 6
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
It says we reign and rule...BUT what happens IN that reign and rule?
People rage against the King, Satan deceives them they FIGHT against
him (or try to) like I said, that isn't a perfect picture either.



No satan is bound for the 1000 years then released at the end for the last battle.

Most allmil... Dont take the hermetical approach to Rev.. They look at it as allegory and symbolize the whole thing.. Much like midevil scholarship, and the school of Alexandria.

So is this a literal 1000 years ?


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
mtmoulton
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 9:12 am | Post: 7
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Hey DS,

I just have a couple questions: Do you take everything in Revelation literally? Do you symbolize anything at all?  Also, what are the patterns that we find in Prophesy itself?

Did Jesus actually crush the head of the serpent? And did the serpent actually bite the heal of the seed? Or is that a symbol for something else?

Thanks,

Mike
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 9:56 am | Post: 8
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Quote
Most allmil... Dont take the hermetical approach to Rev.. They look at
it as allegory and symbolize the whole thing..


I just explained to you that a PART of Hermeneutics is the process of understanding what genre it is, if it is apocalyptic or prophetic, you therefore have to understand that there is a HEAVY amount of allegory in those writings, so you have to be aware of allegory. This IS Hermeneutics.

Have you ever read or watched any videos or taken a class on any other view done BY an amill or postmill or pre wrath teacher?

Moulton makes a great point.

Revelation 12:3–5 (ESV)
... behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. ....

By your false understanding of "literal" interpretation, you therefore think that 
a red dragon will have seven horns, and it is SOOO big that it's tail is going to sweep down stars down to earth (knowing that the smallest star in the heavens is extremely larger than earth) and this dragon is going to sweep 1/3 of them? This would be a "literal" interpretation by your standards.


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 10:46 am | Post: 9
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the problem with Amil is that you have to alegorise so much, especially in the time line,

1000 years is not 1000 years, 7 is not seven.

Israel is not Israel it is the church has taken her place.

Christ will not literally reign on earth, the church is reigning in his place.

Israel will not be restored, nor receive her promises, The church is actually receiving her promises.

God lied to David, and Christ will not reign on his throne.

This just touches the problems with the amil view.




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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
mtmoulton
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 11:04 am | Post: 10
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"the problem with Amil is that you have to alegorise so much, especially in the time line"

What timeline?

"1000 years is not 1000 years, 7 is not seven."

Those numbers have significance in Scripture, and at times they don't simply mean the actual time frame.


"Israel is not Israel it is the church has taken her place."

Not so...

"Christ will not literally reign on earth, the church is reigning in his place."

No. Christ will literally return. However, in what regard is Christ not ruling at this moment? Is Christ on a throne presently, or isn't he?

"Israel will not be restored, nor receive her promises, The church is actually receiving her promises."

Can I ask you, who are the children of Abraham? Also, when God says, "Those who bless you will be blessed and those who cursed you will be cursed." Is he talking speaking ONLY about Israel the Nation? Or are we descenents of Abraham too?

Can anyone be saved besides by Jesus Christ? What does that make them? Israel or the Church? We have an answer for that...

Moreover, we do believe that more Jew will be saved as time progresses, so that isn't a question in our mind.

By question is: Why would God inspire the Letter to the Hebrews which tells us not to look to the types and shadows, then bring us back to those very things that were to lead us to Christ?


"God lied to David, and Christ will not reign on his throne."

No he didn't lie, because Our Lord King Jesus reigns right now.  Where was he when Stephen saw him? Where is now? Is he not on the throne ruling and reigning?

When did this take place?

Psalm 110:1 - "The Lord says to my Lord:  "Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.” 

It's happening right now...


"This just touches the problems with the amil view."

Have you studied Amillenialism, or Post-millenialism? What I mean is what is your background, because I don't want to assume what you know and don't know.  How long have you been a Christian?

In Christ,

Mike
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 11:23 am | Post: 11
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Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


"1000 years is not 1000 years, 7 is not seven."



can you give an example??  All ot prophesy according to time was fullfilled literally. would should we alegorise anything else.

Daniels prophesy was translated literally as per the first 69 weeks. why should we alegorise the last 7??


Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


"Israel is not Israel it is the church has taken her place."

Not so...



Then israel still needs to be regathered, as dry bones and given life. She still must recieve all God promised to abraham, she still has not been given all the land God promised, to this day. She also must have her king reign on david's throne, something that also has not happened yet.

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


"Christ will not literally reign on earth, the church is reigning in his place."

No. Christ will literally return. However, in what regard is Christ not ruling at this moment? Is Christ on a throne presently, or isn't he?



Is Christ ruling the earth at this moment? Is he on davids throne in jerusalem like he promised David? The world still belongs to satan, not Christ. Even paul understood this. As did Christ when he stated the gates of hell will not overcome the church, the church will enter these gates ( the world system) and rescue his children out from bondage,

Satan still rules the world. he will until he is overthrown and cast into the bottomless pit.

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


"Israel will not be restored, nor receive her promises, The church is actually receiving her promises."

Can I ask you, who are the children of Abraham? Also, when God says, "Those who bless you will be blessed and those who cursed you will be cursed." Is he talking speaking ONLY about Israel the Nation? Or are we descenents of Abraham too?



God made specific promises to abraham which can only be fullfilled by hisnatural children. Thes promises have yet to be completely fullfilled.

As for eternal salvation, yes we are spiritual descendents. Because of Christ. but this has nothing to do with the national promises God made to him.. Like land etc..

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


Can anyone be saved besides by Jesus Christ? What does that make them? Israel or the Church? We have an answer for that...



it makes them Gods children..

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


Moreover, we do believe that more Jew will be saved as time progresses, so that isn't a question in our mind.



God said only the elect will enter the kingdom reign. the rest of the world will be destroyed and taken out..  He also said there will be a day when ALL isreal will recieve her messiah.. again, this day has not happened yet. This is the reason for the great tribulation. To restor things and bring them to order, To destroy evil, and set up Gods kingdom.

again, these things have not happened yet.

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


By question is: Why would God inspire the Letter to the Hebrews which tells us not to look to the types and shadows, then bring us back to those very things that were to lead us to Christ?



The types and shadows spoken of in Hebrews is mosaic law, Which shadows Christ. Animal sacrifice, the law and all the traditions like the passover, which were supposed to prepair isreal so they would know her messiah when he came,

the problem was jews were still trying to mix these laws and traditions, such as circumcision, with grace and distorting the gospel.. This is the context of Hebrews.. Has nothing to do with future events.

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


"God lied to David, and Christ will not reign on his throne."

No he didn't lie, because Our Lord King Jesus reigns right now.  Where was he when Stephen saw him? Where is now? Is he not on the throne ruling and reigning?



The promise states Christ will rule on earth in jerusalem, and he would rule the world.. This has yet to take place.. Again the world system still belongs to satan, Not Christ.

Christ is sitting on HIS throne, Not davids..

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am


When did this take place?

Psalm 110:1- "The Lord says to my Lord:  "Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.” 

It's happening right now...



Yes it is happening right now. Because Christs enemies have not yet been taken out. The world still belongs to satan.

Again, this is not the throne God promised david. He said his ofspring would rule from david's throne, Not Gods..

Quote From : mtmoulton March 2, 2010, 11:04 am



"This just touches the problems with the amil view."

Have you studied Amillenialism, or Post-millenialism? What I mean is what is your background, because I don't want to assume what you know and don't know.  How long have you been a Christian?

In Christ,

Mike


Been a christian for 35 years.

I have studied all four views as for end times for years (amil, pre-trib, mid trib and post trib)

it is one of my favorite subjects :)

I will however say I have studied amil from a catholic point of view. If yours is different than theirs.. Maybe I am missing something..

God bless :)
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
mtmoulton
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 11:32 am | Post: 12
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Here is a great resource that might help...

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/studies/eschatology/

Enjoy!
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
mtmoulton
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 11:59 am | Post: 13
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Hi Eternally Grateful,

That's great! 35 years is longer than I have been living! :)

Something I hope we can keep is that we will remain charitable through-out, I think many Christians make this a hill to die and I do not, but it is something to discuss and enjoy. I think as long as we believe in the literal return of Christ in the end to establish the new heavens and new earth, we are pretty much orthodox. I do have some quams, however, with your understanding of prophesy.


So do you go to a Calvary Chapel?
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Pre-Trib, Post Trib, Mid Trib, or no Trib Rapture
mtmoulton
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 12:51 pm | Post: 14
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2 Samuel 7:12 - 16 gives us the promise to David:

12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.

Please note that the Son's kingdom will be established forever and God states that that is David's throne.  The House is for the name of Yahweh, not only David's... Remember the whole thing started from David's desire to build God a house, but God answered and said, "No, I will build you a house..." And then the Lord sets the parameters, which are ultimately fulfilled in Christ. There is no way that Solomon could fulfill those requirements... God Fulfilled them in Christ...

Notice what Col.1:13 says, "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son..." Thus, the point of the Kingdom is that it is fulfilled in Christ.

Is this different than the promise to David? What am I missing?

I think the Bible is quite clear that Jesus sits as ruler as the fulfillment of the promise to David.  Does the prophesy deal with location? Or is it more concerned with lineage? Moreover, the "forever" is key, it meansthat Christ's kingdom will eternally, which started when he was lifted into heaven and took his rightful place at the right hand of God...

Daniel 7:13,14 states -

“I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed."

Isn't that the Christ taking his rightful place? And Aren't we (the Church) from all peoples, nations, and languages? Don't we all serve him? Doesn't he have an everlasting dominion? Hasn't that started NOW?

So, how hasn't the promise to David been fulfilled in Christ?

In Christ,

Mike M.
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