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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 3, 2010, 3:30 pm | Post: 30
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First off I know what sin is.


Yes, it was just explained to you. And it includes unbelief.


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The omniscience of God
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 3, 2010, 3:59 pm | Post: 31
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Quote From : ronathanedwards March 3, 2010, 3:30 pm
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First off I know what sin is.


Yes, it was just explained to you. And it includes unbelief.


I did not even read what you posted. It was an insult. Like I said, I know what sin is.

Why are you unwilling to answer the question? are you afraid??


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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 8:14 am | Post: 32
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I did not even read what you posted. It was an insult.


How do you know my post was an insult if you didn't read it?

Anything not of faith is a sin.  It is a clear INDICATIVE explicit statement. There are no qualifiers, therefore the context from which it comes from doesn't matter.

The clause is started by a "gar", it is a GROUND clause supporting the "doubting".

Therefore you can interchange the eating and drinking with ANYTHING, the ground supports the doubting.

One who "doubts" whether he should watch R rated movies and watches them is not an action FROM faith, therefore it is a sin. Why? Because he is DOUBTING on the subject.

Funny, doubting IS a form of unbelief anyways. You doubt that God's promises are real or they are untrustworthy.

Yes, unbelief is a sin. And probably the greatest sin. To bad you can't see that because of your tradition.


Edited by ronathanedwards : March 4, 2010, 8:17 am

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The omniscience of God
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 8:28 am | Post: 33
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Quote From : ronathanedwards March 4, 2010, 8:14 am
Quote
I did not even read what you posted. It was an insult.


How do you know my post was an insult if you didn't read it?

Anything not of faith is a sin.  It is a clear INDICATIVE explicit statement. There are no qualifiers, therefore the context from which it comes from doesn't matter.

The clause is started by a "gar", it is a GROUND clause supporting the "doubting".

Therefore you can interchange the eating and drinking with ANYTHING, the ground supports the doubting.

One who "doubts" whether he should watch R rated movies and watches them is not an action FROM faith, therefore it is a sin. Why? Because he is DOUBTING on the subject.

Funny, doubting IS a form of unbelief anyways. You doubt that God's promises are real or they are untrustworthy.

Yes, unbelief is a sin. And probably the greatest sin. To bad you can't see that because of your tradition.


It is an insult because you act like I do not know what sin is.

Yes unbelief is a sin. I am trying to get you to understand what kind of sin., and who the sin is against.

so why are you afraid to answer the question?? 




Edited by eternally-gratefull : March 4, 2010, 8:29 am
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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 8:36 am | Post: 34
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Please, oh PLEASE say it is the sin against the holy spirit !!!!
The unforgivable sin!!!

Please say that is what you believe!


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The omniscience of God
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 8:53 am | Post: 35
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Quote From : ronathanedwards March 4, 2010, 8:36 am
Please, oh PLEASE say it is the sin against the holy spirit !!!!
The unforgivable sin!!!

Please say that is what you believe!


what is blasphemy?

what is unbelief? is it not saying you are your own God. thus attributing to yourself the attribute of God,

Is it not attributing the work of God to another man (a works based gospel)

is it not dissenting from the truth?

Was not the holy spirit sent to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment, And if one rejects what the holy spirit says is this not dissent?

from the unabridged dictionary.

"the people of 17th century England committed blasphemy as they dissented from the doctrine of the church"

Is this not what all people who reject the gospel in unbelief do??

Why do you think Christ said ALL SIN will be forgiven MEN?  did he waste his breath? or did he mean it.

I asked you before,. you refused to answer that also.

where in rev 21 are people at the great white throne judged for sin??  I can not find it.

They are judged for their works. I see nothing about sin.. I also see the reason they were sent to eternal darkness is because they were not written in the book. Not because of sin..

Why? Because they commited the sin which can not be forgiven.. the only one Christ did NOT die for.






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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 9:35 am | Post: 36
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Why? Because they commited the sin which can not be forgiven.. the only
one Christ did NOT die for.


I agree, to an extent.  Yet there is a stipulation. We have all been in that "state" (being unbelieving) Therefore in the strict sense we would have been guilty of committing that sin. It is a heart issue is it not? A heart that is in a continual state of hardness continually rebelling and resisting the Holy Spirit till death, isn't this what is being expressed?

Who are the ones then that have committed this "sin"?

Are they not ALL who die in a state of unbelief?


Edited by ronathanedwards : March 4, 2010, 10:31 am

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The omniscience of God
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 10:55 am | Post: 37
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Quote From : ronathanedwards March 4, 2010, 9:35 am
Quote
Why? Because they commited the sin which can not be forgiven.. the only
one Christ did NOT die for.


I agree, to an extent.  Yet there is a stipulation. We have all been in that "state" (being unbelieving) Therefore in the strict sense we would have been guilty of committing that sin. It is a heart issue is it not? A heart that is in a continual state of hardness continually rebelling and resisting the Holy Spirit till death, isn't this what is being expressed?



Think back to the passage. The people claimed Christ did his miracles in the power of satan. Not the holy spirit. for all we know Paul and or nicodemus was there, even if they were not. there might have been people that came to christ.

he said, whoever is not with me is against me, that was the context.

He also says later, "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Stating again that it is through our hearts (for out of the heart comes our words) that we have faith and are saved, or reject faith and are condemned.

The fact is, they were already blaspheming the HS, but they had a chance while on earth to repent. If you die having never received Christ, you call the Holy Spirit a liar, and are eternally guilty of committing the sin that will never be forgiven.
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 4, 2010, 9:35 am

You yourself admit before we come to Christ we are against him, and in a blasphemous state.

Yes we are, and have until we die to come out of this state.
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 4, 2010, 9:35 am

Who are the ones then that have committed this "sin"?
Are they not ALL who die in a state of unbelief?


There you have it.. Yes your right. And this is why they are judged, Not because of sin, But because of unbelief, which is committing the unpardonable sin.

which was the point I was trying to make.


Edited by eternally-gratefull : March 4, 2010, 10:56 am
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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 6, 2010, 11:58 am | Post: 38
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There you have it.. Yes your right. And this is why they are judged, Not
because of sin, But because of unbelief, which is committing the
unpardonable sin.


I am glad you used the term "UNPARDONABLE" sin.

So, what does it mean then, that those who "commit this sin" will NOT RECEIVE Pardon in THIS LIFE?




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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The omniscience of God
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 6, 2010, 1:43 pm | Post: 39
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Quote From : ronathanedwards March 6, 2010, 11:58 am
Quote
There you have it.. Yes your right. And this is why they are judged, Not
because of sin, But because of unbelief, which is committing the
unpardonable sin.


I am glad you used the term "UNPARDONABLE" sin.

So, what does it mean then, that those who "commit this sin" will NOT RECEIVE Pardon in THIS LIFE?



No it means they will not receive Pardon in eternity.

It will be the reason they are cast to hell..




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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 6, 2010, 8:34 pm | Post: 40
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No it means
they will not receive Pardon in eternity.


It will be the reason they are cast to hell..


NO? They can receive pardon in this life? Really?

Matthew 12:32 (ESV) whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Here the future reference is qualified by temporal prepositions. What are they? In THIS age OR the age to come. In other words, NEVER, not in THIS LIFE or the LIFE to come.


Mark 3:29 (ESV)29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

There is no future reference "they WILL not receive pardon"  in that verse, also there is NO "prepositional phrase" "IN eternity". 

Please refrain from changing the grammar of the text and let it say what it says. This again is vital in understanding the intent of the author and not interjecting meaning that is not there.

Those who blaspheme NEVER HAS (present tense) forgiveness.
But IS guilty (present tense) OF eternal Sin (eternal is an adjective describing the sin, it is NOT speaking of WHEN the they will NOT be pardoned.

This is the EXPLICIT parameter of the text. It is FROM the moment of the sin (present) and goes for eternity, it is a perfect parallel to Matt. 12.

In Luke 12:10 he gives a basic future with the understanding of an eternal consequence. This does not go against the other verses since "Never" implies ALL of the future but leaves out the present aspects. This is WITHIN the parameters given in the other verses, but is not describing the explicit boundaries concerning the subject. Luke left that up to Matthew and Mark.

So, now you have a problem with people who commit this sin in THIS LIFE that CAN NOT be pardoned. What makes PARDON guaranteed? 

 


Edited by ronathanedwards : March 6, 2010, 8:39 pm

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The omniscience of God
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 8, 2010, 8:40 am | Post: 41
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well well, I should have known you would go back to his, and destroy context of scripture.

Do you not know that before we come to Christ we are all in a rebellious state and actively blaspheming the Holy Spirit..

So I guess none of us have any hope, is this what your saying??  for as Jesus made clear, if we are not with him we are against him, we are against him up until the moment we repent and actully have faith in him, up until this point, we are calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

so are we all condemned??  for we all have done this,..

as I said again, the people Jesus spoke to commited this sin, he did not condemn them, he warned them..


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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 9, 2010, 6:54 pm | Post: 42
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LOL, backtracking are we.

Who are the people then that HAVE commited this sin? And what are the consequences?

You are ignoring the reality of it. There ARE those who do commit this sin AND they are and NEVER WILL BE from THAT point be forgiven. Isn't that correct?

And the analogy of scripture tells us that ONLY "Those who believe" have forgiveness, yet there are those in reality that have NO CHANCE for forgiveness in this life.

This sin isn't a judgment that is given them AFTER their lives either. Jesus said IN this life or the life after. He didn't say AFTER this life.

So, these people, who will NOT be forgiven IN this life. They are "unpardoned".
Which then means they were not atoned for either.

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The omniscience of God
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # March 10, 2010, 6:57 am | Post: 43
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Quote From : ronathanedwards March 9, 2010, 6:54 pm
LOL, backtracking are we.

Who are the people then that HAVE commited this sin? And what are the consequences?

You are ignoring the reality of it. There ARE those who do commit this sin AND they are and NEVER WILL BE from THAT point be forgiven. Isn't that correct?

And the analogy of scripture tells us that ONLY "Those who believe" have forgiveness, yet there are those in reality that have NO CHANCE for forgiveness in this life.

This sin isn't a judgment that is given them AFTER their lives either. Jesus said IN this life or the life after. He didn't say AFTER this life.

So, these people, who will NOT be forgiven IN this life. They are "unpardoned".
Which then means they were not atoned for either.


I am not back tracking. I am still saying the same thing.

Jesus did not condemn them, he warned them,, do you understand the difference?

they commited this sin, did he condemn them?? NO!

Everyone has commited this at one point of thier life, it is why they are dead, They have until they die to repent, and place their faith in Christ, Until then, they are calling the HS a liar.

so you will have to explain why Jesus did nto condemn those who commited this sin in his face, and why he just warned them.

again, it is completely understandable to think Paul (who was at this time Saul) and others who came to Christ did not think this same thing,. In fact since it is not only known that all pharisees thought Christ did his work through the power of satan, It is written down in josphus writtings. Paul being a pharisee would have believed this very thing up until the time of his conversion.

according to your understanding. Paul is condemned forever,,  how can you explain this?
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The omniscience of God
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 11, 2010, 10:52 am | Post: 44
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It doesn't say that Jesus warned them. By implication He was talking ABOUT them AND those who do the same.

Their "hearts" that Jesus saw is exactly to which He was referring by the very statements they made.

They said that the work of the Holy Spirit (Jesus's miracles) where done by Satanic power. This is a direct reference to which Jesus was talking about. And He equated that "heart" of being so reprobate to equate works of God to being Satanic as being blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Your argument concerning Paul is inference and is an argument of guilt by association. It also goes against the anology of scripture. Jesus said that those who commit this sin will NOT be forgiven in THIS life. Paul was forgiven, therefore, He did not commit this sin.

You have yet to tell me the consequences of those that HAVE in reality committed this sin. Your only replies have been to the effect that the pharisees didn't commit this sin or that we all have (which is in error). There are two "senses" in which this is to be understood.

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

To understand these verses and similar passages elsewhere, we have to keep in mind their redemptive and historical context. During his earthly ministry, our Lord frequently concealed who he was. After doing a miracle he would say, "Tell no one." This was because the time of his full manifestation had not yet come.

Only after the resurrection, and especially after the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, was the "messianic secret" openly published. For this reason, Jesus says, those who rejected him during his earthly ministry were guilty of a lesser degree of sin (though still a sin) than those who would reject the post-Pentecost testimony of the Holy Spirit. As Hebrews 10:26 puts it, after we have received the full knowledge of the truth it becomes possible to commit this unpardonable sin.

After Pentecost, rejecting the full testimony of the Spirit is the same as rejecting the Son of Man. Thus, in one sense, perseverance in unbelief is an unpardonable sin. Jesus, however, was speaking of some kind of particular sin. From the context it appears that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is with malice aforethought, with deliberate hostility, and with the intention to equate Jesus with the powers of darkness when the individual knows that he is the Son of God


Please answer the question. What are the implications of those that have committed this sin? If it is unPARDONable, then it is a sin Jesus didn't atone.

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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