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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
skala
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Ah, and all this time I kept saying "brother"! My apologies!

Don't feel bad, you are in the same boat many people have been in in the past sister.  It takes time and effort to "iron out" all of those wrinkles that we start noticing in theology.  It takes time to emotionally embrace things, even those tough things that offend us at first.

I do recommend you head over to the Warranted Faith forums, there is much good information there. I go by "skala" on teh same board :) When discussing this topics, it is always good to hear both sides of the argument.  On these forums, at divine soteriology, there are people who fall on both sides of the debate. It is wise to listen to both sides.

However if you want to learn, say, Calvinism specifically, it is helpful to actually hear from the horse's mouth. In other words, go to Calvinists and ask them questions about Calvinism, in order to learn what Calvinism is.

Do not go to anti-Calvinists as usually you run into strawmen and mischaracterizations because they have a biased opinion.  (The same goes for Arminianism)

WarrantedFaith forums is a great place to interact with Calvinists and ask them any questions :) They deal with these issues every single day, and are quite knowledgeable.


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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
CoxRox
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Hi Skala, I've been pondering these things and re-reading your previous replies.  I'd just like to re-examine this point you made earlier:

Quote From : skala July 1, 2010, 12:26 pm

We know that Jesus urged people to do good works, but we also know that those good works don't (and can't) merit salvation.


I've been wondering about Jesus' words in Matt 25:31etc.  I'm struggling to 'see' how 'works' play no part in the coming Judgment (which I assume is what is being referred to here).  Wouldn't it make more sense if Jesus said 'depart from me, you who were not chosen before the founding of the world and hence lived godless lives of sin etc...' or words to that effect?  The way these verses are worded and many other verses, strongly suggest that our choices/actions some how have a bearing on our outcomes.  Jesus is saying 'you didn't do this, you didn't do that, and hence you're now 'damned'.  I understand that we can't really understand this apparent 'contradiction' but when I read the NT, it does seem to 'favour' the Arminian viewpoint.  Also, does it matter if we believe that 'everyone' has an 'equal opportunity' to be partakers of Jesus' sacrifice (many are called but few chosen)?  Most 'churches' seem to be of this viewpoint.  Would you consider them 'christians'? 


Quote From : skala July 1, 2010, 12:26 pm

However if you want to learn, say, Calvinism specifically, it is helpful to actually hear from the horse's mouth. In other words, go to Calvinists and ask them questions about Calvinism, in order to learn what Calvinism is.


I've been googling churches in my area and I've found a Zion Baptist Church, who are 'Calvinist'.  I've always viewed this church with great suspicion (it's a wierd shape) and wondered what strange breed of christians has their home there.  Now I know.  I might check them out.  They don't seem to have any 'outreach' programmes, unlike all the mainstream evangelical churches who have homeless projects, street preaching, etc etc.  I live in central England, so I'm not sure what's 'out there' really.  If I were to compare 'churches' I would assume that the ones 'doing' stuff were more in line with Jesus' words in Matt 25 and these 'churches' are 'Arminian'.  I don't 'go' to a church at present.  I don't seem to 'find' God at any church I go to.  That could be me though.  Maybe I'm not one of the elect: I might be one of the ones 'called' but not chosen.  I feel like that most of the time.  :cry: 

Finally, can I ask you to clarify a couple of verses that seem to support the Armininan position:

John 3:16 It doesn't say 'God loved the elect...'.
1 John 2:2 I'd understood Paul to be referring to 'gentiles' here, not just 'Jews'.

I'm sure there are others I've forgotten.  Please answer when time allows.  Thanks again for your help.  :D 


Edited by CoxRox : July 6, 2010, 7:10 am
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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
skala
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CoxRox, good to hear from you again!

Regarding Jesus and good works:

You must remember that Jesus Himself was one of the biggest proponents of the idea that works flows from the nature of a person.  Remember, He taught that fruit always matched the nature of the tree.  A good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree bears bad fruit.

So the type of tree determines the type of fruit.  This is the opposite from saying that the type of fruit determines the type of tree.

In other words, in no sense was Jesus saying that you could change into whatever type of tree you wanted to be by striving to bear that kind of fruit.  Ie, you can't "become" a good tree by producing good fruit.  No, you have to be a good tree to begin with or good fruit will not be produced.

This, coupled with the fact that we know Jesus taught that each and every person is of such a nature that they need to be born again (John 3) proves to me that Jesus does not put much confidence in the fallen nature of man.  To Jesus, each and every person is of such a nature that by default that they "must be born again".

Non-born again person = bad tree
Born again person = good tree

As far as the judgment is concerned, we will most surely be judged according to our works.  The question is, does Jesus stand in for the Christian when God considers their works?  Yes or no?  If no, then what int he world did Jesus come to earth and die on the cross for? I thought He was my substitute from beginning to end? I thought He was my mediator with the Father?

When I stand before God, I don't want him to see my works, even my "good" works, as they are "filthy rags" and judge me on that basis.  I want Jesus to step in and take my place.

So when God judges non-Christians, of course, nobody is there to take their place as they do not trust in Jesus Christ as their substitute, so they will be judged according to their works.

Quote
Also, does it matter if we believe that 'everyone' has an 'equal opportunity' to be partakers of Jesus' sacrifice (many are called but few chosen)? Most 'churches' seem to be of this viewpoint. Would you consider them 'christians'?


Yes, they are still Christians.

First, why does belief in this doctrine not matter? It doesn't matter in a sense because this doctrine is not an essential doctrine.  What I mean is, there are certain doctrines that are considered "essential" that if one does not adhere to them they are outside of the pale of orthodoxy.  Even outside the realm of Christianity.  Some examples of essential doctrines are: The Trinity, The Deity of Christ, the Sinlessness of Christ, the sinfulness of man, etc, salvation by faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.  If someone denies any of these there is no way they can be what the Bible calls Christian. They are denying the very foundations of the entire gospel message. So yes, a person can be a Christian still if they deny the soteriology of "Calvinism", because it's not an essential doctrine, though it is a helpful and (I believe) fully Biblical doctrine.

Second, why does it matter?  It matters because what we believe affects our worldview.  It also affects how we conduct ourselves and our motives for our actions.  For example, as a Calvinist, I spread the gospel knowing that God has His elect people out there that He desires to save and He uses me as the tool in His hands to reach all of His people. So I have fellow brothers and sisters of God out there that I am motivated to find so that they can hear the good news of their salvation (See John 11:51-52, and 2 Ti 2:10)

Joh 11:51-52
(51)  And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
(52)  And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

2Ti 2:10  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

These verses make it clear to me that part of Christ's goal for dying was to "gather together all of the children of God".  Paul echoes this same mentality when he says he "endures all things for the sake of the elect so that they may be saved".  Notice, the salvation of the elect is Paul's motivation.  Consider Paul's life.  He had one of the hardest lives as a Christian, full of persecution, beatings, imprisonment, running for his life, etc.  And all of that, Paul says he endures for God's elect.

That's just one example of many regarding how our view of salvation affects how we think and act, and our motives.  Whereas the Arminian really doesn't have these same motives does he?  His goal is really to emotionally manipulate as many people as possible into making some kind of positive decision for Christ.  It all depends on his presentation doesn't it? To them, there's no such thing as God's elect who will most assuredly respond positively.  It's all up in the air and they have their fingers crossed whether or not their efforts will be in vain.  Whereas the Calvinist knows for a fact that his efforts are not in vain because there is a 100% guarantee that the gospel will accomplish everything it was meant to do.

Quote
I've been googling churches in my area and I've found a Zion Baptist Church, who are 'Calvinist'. I've always viewed this church with great suspicion (it's a wierd shape) and wondered what strange breed of christians has their home there. Now I know. I might check them out. They don't seem to have any 'outreach' programmes, unlike all the mainstream evangelical churches who have homeless projects, street preaching, etc etc. I live in central England, so I'm not sure what's 'out there' really. If I were to compare 'churches' I would assume that the ones 'doing' stuff were more in line with Jesus' words in Matt 25 and these 'churches' are 'Arminian'.


That sounds like a mighty weird church my friend.  You musn't paint everyone with the same brush.  If church A is acting a certain way that doesn't mean it is the norm or that church B will also act that way.  If what you say is true that that church doesn't do the things the Bible commands us to do, then my question is, is it really a church at all?

Quote
That could be me though. Maybe I'm not one of the elect: I might be one of the ones 'called' but not chosen. I feel like that most of the time. :cry:


The only question that matters is: Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust him alone for your salvation putting no confidence in yourself, your flesh, your efforts, etc.  Do you believe in Jesus?

That's the gospel message isn't it?

The Bible tells us how we can know if we are Christians.  And you know what, never, not even once does it tell us that we have to stop to check to see if we "feel" like we are a Christian.  Our feelings on the matter are irrelevant. They are subjective.  The only thing the Bible is concerned with is: Do you believe in Jesus? And does your life reflect your belief in Jesus? Ie, are you a changed person? A "new creature"? End of story!

Quote
John 3:16 It doesn't say 'God loved the elect...'. 1 John 2:2 I'd understood Paul to be referring to 'gentiles' here, not just 'Jews'.


I don't understand your concern over John 3:16.  John 3:16 doesn't offer anything that is a denial of the Calvinistic understand, nor does it offer anything that gives strength to the Arminian understanding.

The verse simply teaches that everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved.  Both Calvinism and Arminianism affirm that, so what's the problem?

I will however like to point out something to you.  The word "so" in the Greek means "in this manner".  You can see the same word in Acts 14:1 where it says "they so spake...".  In other words, "they spake in such a way..." or "in such a manner".  So the word "so" in John 3:16 doesn't mean that God SOOOOOOOO loved the world, sort of like how a teenager would tell you how they love their boyfriend/girlfriend "sooooo much".  So John 3:16 isn't saying that God "intensely" loved the world, but rather, "here is how God loved the world", or "God loved the world in this manner:".  In what manner?  He sent His only begotten Son to save people.  To save who?  Everyone? No, only only all who believe. (everyone who believes/whoever believes)

Paraphrase: God demonstrated his love towards the world in this way: He sent His Son to save believers.

Regarding 1 John 2:2, I am in agreement with you.  I believe John is saying that Christ died for Gentiles as well as Jews, thus, John employs the term "the whole world". (Saying "the world" or "the whole world" was a very common way for Jews to refer to the other nations of the world)
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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
CoxRox
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Hi skala, thanks for getting back to me.

Quote From : skala July 6, 2010, 8:33 am
So the type of tree determines the type of fruit.  This is the opposite from saying that the type of fruit determines the type of tree.


I know that I, in my 'own power' cannot change from that rotten tree into a good tree.  I try to be as good as I can be and fail most of the time.  However when I'm struggling with something, I ask God to help me because I know I can't do it myself, but I admit I'm still under the impression that I am 'doing' some of the 'trying to be good'- it's an atom sized amount from me and the rest from God!!  The bit I am 'doing' is ASKING God for help and trying to will myself to do the right thing.  This feels like 'me' or 'input' from me.  If a 'bad tree' knows its bad and wants to become a 'good tree' ie wants to be born again, then would you say we must attribute the 'wanting/desiring' purely to God and not from any 'goodness' coming from the 'self'?   

Quote From : skala July 6, 2010, 8:33 am

When I stand before God, I don't want him to see my works, even my "good" works, as they are "filthy rags" and judge me on that basis.  I want Jesus to step in and take my place.

So when God judges non-Christians, of course, nobody is there to take their place as they do not trust in Jesus Christ as their substitute, so they will be judged according to their works.


I love how you have explained this.  It's great!  It seems too simple and too good to be true and makes me wonder why everybody can't be 'covered' in this way, but I have to trust God here.

Quote From : skala July 6, 2010, 8:33 am
..the Arminian really doesn't have these same motives does he?  His goal is really to emotionally manipulate as many people as possible into making some kind of positive decision for Christ.  It all depends on his presentation doesn't it? To them, there's no such thing as God's elect who will most assuredly respond positively.  It's all up in the air and they have their fingers crossed whether or not their efforts will be in vain.  Whereas the Calvinist knows for a fact that his efforts are not in vain because there is a 100% guarantee that the gospel will accomplish everything it was meant to do. .


I agree this can be the case, but isn't always.  If I take the AOG Church I attended last year, they certainly seem to 'stir up' emotions so that you 'feel' it's the right thing to 'make a decision' for Christ and hence accept the 'altar call' (the minor notes on the accompanying key board help with the ambience) but I know in my heart, that their intentions are not to try and trick you.  This church asks the Holy Spirit to 'touch' people.  They would be the first to admit that it can be people's emotions rather than the Holy Spirit, that is the catalyst to 'going up' to the front and if so, these people will 'fall away'.  I do see what you are saying though.  I have 'gone up' for prayer many times, after a 'rousing' appeal from the Pastor, and even though I'm already annoyed that the keyboard is playing along, and no doubt one or two will 'fall over', I still want to meet with God and get help, but I must admit, I've never come back from the 'front' feeling any different.  I'm rather skeptical of these things.

Quote From : skala July 6, 2010, 8:33 am
The only question that matters is: Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust him alone for your salvation putting no confidence in yourself, your flesh, your efforts, etc.  Do you believe in Jesus?

That's the gospel message isn't it?


I try to believe in Jesus.  I doubt every day, and I ask Him regularly if He is real and to help me know He is real so that I can love Him.  (You can't love someone who you're not sure even exists and I am ever reminded of Jesus' word 'if you love me you will obey my commands').  I am 'drawn' to Him in that I don't seem to be able to completely deny His existence.  And although I've had periods of years when I haven't bothered with God and Jesus, I always end up thinking about them and yearning to be right with them.  If I hear blasphemy it bothers me.  I was raised a Roman Catholic but at the age of 14 I met the Jehovah's Witnesses and studied with them on and off for a couple of years (hence my 'works' understanding), so I've always wanted to 'know' God and know the truth, but I find it impossible to 'live' the way you're meant to if you are a believer, because 1) I only 'believe' a bit and 2)I don't 'hate' things that I know the Bible says is wrong, so I carry on: a weak willed woman, laden down by sins, being tossed here and there (this church to that church) and all I want is to know that God is really out there, that Jesus is real and loves me and has forgiven me for all the bad things I have done and do.  I know I can't save myself, but I still think I have to try to do as much as possible to get Jesus to help me and let me know He is real.  I keep thinking, He can't love me otherwise He would have given me His Holy Spirit to confirm in my spirit that He is real etc, but I haven't had that- hence my worry that I'm not one of the 'elect'.  I believe the 'assurance' the Holy Spirit gives is not just a 'feeling' but meant to be a deeper inner spiritual reality which the nearest we can describe it is 'feeling saved'??? 

Thanks again for you help.  You have a way with words. 








Edited by CoxRox : July 8, 2010, 6:54 am
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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
CoxRox
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Oh well, it seems I'm not one of the elect.............................................................
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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
skala
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Why do you say that?
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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
CoxRox
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Quote From : skala July 12, 2010, 12:12 pm
Why do you say that?


It seemed to go 'silent' after my last post and I was expecting some sort of feedback.  Maybe I was wrong to expect that.  :cry:
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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
skala
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Ah sorry for vanishing suddenly!  I was simply not on the computer at all this past weekend, sorry about that! I will have to respond to you tomorrow I think, as right now I'm pressed for time! Talk to you then...


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CoxRox
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Quote From : skala July 12, 2010, 3:37 pm
Ah sorry for vanishing suddenly!  I was simply not on the computer at all this past weekend, sorry about that! I will have to respond to you tomorrow I think, as right now I'm pressed for time! Talk to you then...




No probs skala.  Come back to me when you have the time.
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Salvation by faith, works or a combination.
CoxRox
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Quote From : skala July 12, 2010, 3:37 pm
Ah sorry for vanishing suddenly!  I was simply not on the computer at all this past weekend, sorry about that! I will have to respond to you tomorrow I think, as right now I'm pressed for time! Talk to you then...




Hi skala, I hope you are ok.  I'm looking forward to hearing from you, when you have the time.  :D
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skala
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Quote
I know that I, in my 'own power' cannot change from that rotten tree into a good tree.  I try to be as good as I can be and fail most of the time.  However when I'm struggling with something, I ask God to help me because I know I can't do it myself, but I admit I'm still under the impression that I am 'doing' some of the 'trying to be good'- it's an atom sized amount from me and the rest from God!!  The bit I am 'doing' is ASKING God for help and trying to will myself to do the right thing.  This feels like 'me' or 'input' from me.  If a 'bad tree' knows its bad and wants to become a 'good tree' ie wants to be born again, then would you say we must attribute the 'wanting/desiring' purely to God and not from any 'goodness' coming from the 'self'?   


I see what you are saying, but my argument would be, isn't your wanting/desiring holiness and righteousness the result of God working in and through you, not a product of your own natural faculties?  The Bible is clear that our flesh has nothing to offer, and it profits nothing spiritually, and we should put no confidence in it.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Notice how verse 13 explains verse 12.  Verse 12 obviously commands us to work out our salvation, but verse 13 starts with the word "for" which means "because".  The reason we work out our salvation is "because God is working in us..." to accomplish it. So it all comes back to God and His grace doesn't it? The origin of all of these processes is God, not us.  It is clear to me that the relationship of verse 12 and verse 13 tells us which is the cart and which is the horse.

Quote

I love how you have explained this.  It's great!  It seems too simple and too good to be true and makes me wonder why everybody can't be 'covered' in this way, but I have to trust God here.


This may sound strange, but if we can come to terms with the idea that everything God does is right, then it is "right" of God to not "cover" everyone.  We have to trust that God is always perfectly just and correct in His decisions.  Why did God not save everyone? Because it was right of Him to do so.

Quote
I agree this can be the case, but isn't always.  If I take the AOG Church I attended last year, they certainly seem to 'stir up' emotions so that you 'feel' it's the right thing to 'make a decision' for Christ and hence accept the 'altar call' (the minor notes on the accompanying key board help with the ambience) but I know in my heart, that their intentions are not to try and trick you.


I hope you didn't misunderstand me.  I didn't mean that people are trying to "trick" others into making some kind of positive decision for Christ in a mischievous way.  I merely mean to point out all of the tactics and strategies that one must employ to evangelize if one doesn't acknowledge the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation.  As humans we feel like we have to "come up with" methods that make the gospel more effective.  As if the gospel isn't powerful enough by itself.  However as a Calvinist my understanding that God works through His gospel message and has a 100% success rate means I don't have to invent all kinds of special strategies to "get the most amount of people saved".  I can just preach the gospel at is is, no tricks, no tactics, no strategies, and let God work. I don't need to play the music that tugs at heart strings, I don't need to show pictures of a poor Jesus carrying a cross (for this makes the sinner pity Jesus rather than showing him that Jesus has pitied him!)

Quote
I try to believe in Jesus.  I doubt every day, and I ask Him regularly if He is real and to help me know He is real so that I can love Him.  (You can't love someone who you're not sure even exists and I am ever reminded of Jesus' word 'if you love me you will obey my commands').  I am 'drawn' to Him in that I don't seem to be able to completely deny His existence.  And although I've had periods of years when I haven't bothered with God and Jesus, I always end up thinking about them and yearning to be right with them.  If I hear blasphemy it bothers me.  I was raised a Roman Catholic but at the age of 14 I met the Jehovah's Witnesses and studied with them on and off for a couple of years (hence my 'works' understanding), so I've always wanted to 'know' God and know the truth, but I find it impossible to 'live' the way you're meant to if you are a believer, because 1) I only 'believe' a bit and 2)I don't 'hate' things that I know the Bible says is wrong, so I carry on: a weak willed woman, laden down by sins, being tossed here and there (this church to that church) and all I want is to know that God is really out there, that Jesus is real and loves me and has forgiven me for all the bad things I have done and do.  I know I can't save myself, but I still think I have to try to do as much as possible to get Jesus to help me and let me know He is real.  I keep thinking, He can't love me otherwise He would have given me His Holy Spirit to confirm in my spirit that He is real etc, but I haven't had that- hence my worry that I'm not one of the 'elect'.  I believe the 'assurance' the Holy Spirit gives is not just a 'feeling' but meant to be a deeper inner spiritual reality which the nearest we can describe it is 'feeling saved'???


My only advice is to simply constantly return to the best source of strength - God himself. I hope you see what I am saying.  I'm not saying "Oh, you don't believe enough? Then you need to try to believe harder!".  Rather than telling you to focus on your own strengths, I will send you back to God. Ask him to supply you with the faith that will give you assurance.  Ask him to strengthen you and to help you.  Do you see a pattern here? It's all about God, all the time!

You gonna come visit us over at warranted faith forums? :)
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CoxRox
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Quote From : skala July 27, 2010, 10:02 am


I hope you didn't misunderstand me.  I didn't mean that people are trying to "trick" others into making some kind of positive decision for Christ in a mischievous way.  I merely mean to point out all of the tactics and strategies that one must employ to evangelize if one doesn't acknowledge the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation.  As humans we feel like we have to "come up with" methods that make the gospel more effective.  As if the gospel isn't powerful enough by itself.  However as a Calvinist my understanding that God works through His gospel message and has a 100% success rate means I don't have to invent all kinds of special strategies to "get the most amount of people saved".  I can just preach the gospel at is is, no tricks, no tactics, no strategies, and let God work. I don't need to play the music that tugs at heart strings, I don't need to show pictures of a poor Jesus carrying a cross (for this makes the sinner pity Jesus rather than showing him that Jesus has pitied him!)


I did misunderstand  you, sorry.  I tend to take things literally- doh!  (Although, there are men who really do 'trick' people, usually for their money). 

I see what you're saying now.  I agree in the main, but I'm remembering Paul saying he becomes all things etc, so he employed certain 'tactics' for want of a better word, to make it easier for people to respond to the gospel.

Anyway, it's good to hear from you and I'll endeavour to pop over to warranted faith forums, time allowing.  :D

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