My understanding has always been that belief in Christ cannot be divorced from 'works' and I don't mean the 'works' that were part of the ceremonial laws of the Mosaic Covenant, I mean 'fruits'.  I understand that there is nothing I can do to achieve everlasting life.  I'm going to die and I cannot save myself.  God requires an atoning 'work' (don't fully understand why??) and Jesus has done this 'work' for the whole world, so that we can be saved.  (So all those deluded guys who get 'crucified' at Easter thinking they're doing something worthwhile are wasting their time and wood).  

The grey area occurs after we have become a believer and partake in the New Covenant.  What are we meant to 'do' as a believer?  Jesus is quite clear on this subject.  He says that His true disciples will produce 'fruits' that indicate they are truly believers.   So 'belief' is not passive.  It must produce responses that are borne out in how we live our lives. E.g I turn the other cheek when I feel like letting rip, I try not to be impatient with my annoying relative, etc.  When I tell my husband (I'm a laydee) I love him, he knows I love him because of how I act with him, not just words I speak to him.  

So, to summarise my understanding:

When someone decides to accept Christ as their Saviour, they do not have to do anything, other than ask Him with a sincere heart, believing they need a saviour etc.

Once you have made this committment, if you are serious about it, you will 'produce fruit' that demonstrates you are a 'new creation'.  Yes, you'll still do dodgy stuff but you'll ask forgiveness and carry on your journey as best you can.........

[This is a classic question What is our part and what is Gods after we have been saved.
James says faith without works is dead. He is right because faith will naturally produce good works. Do we need to do good works to be saved ? No of course not we were already saved. The works naturally flow from saving faith. 1 John shows us that those who have been born again bear fruit, they love, they dont live a life of sin etc. Do we have to go out and force ourselves to love ? From my perspective thise things naturally flow, when we start doing things out of because we feel obligated it becomes a legalistic works based salvation. The word of God says not by might not by strength but by my Spirit say's the Lord.
You mentioned atonement, did you not understand that article I posted on atonement a while back ?

We are saved by faith alone, and the Bible argues, this is the only way that human boasting is removed.

If we contributed to our salvation in any way with good works then we would have room to boast or take credit for earning our salvation. Paul says that if we work for salvation, then we aren't saved by grace, but rather, we are only receiving what we are owed.

Grace means freely given, without earning it.  And Paul is clear that we are saved by grace alone.  We are saved freely and we didn't earn it.  So if we think works save us then Paul says that is not salvation by works, but that is merely earning what you are owed:

Rom 4:2-5
(2)  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
(3)  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
(4)  Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
(5)  And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Further, Paul argues in chapter 3 that the law was not meant to be used for salvation, but rather, to show us our need for a Saviour.

Rom 3:20  For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 

Therefore, Paul says:

Rom 3:28  For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

So the whole point of God's commandants is not to have us try to earn salvation.  But rather to show us that we are sinners to drive us to turn to the savior.

As for how works relate to our salvation, the Apostle Paul is also clear on that relationship:

Eph 2:8-10
(8)  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(9)  not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(10)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Many people have verses 8-9 memorized, but really, we should memorize verse 10 too!  Verse 10 explains the relationship between works and salvation.  We are saved "in order to do good works", not "because of our good works".

I think the Bible clearly teaches that if a person is truly saved they will experience a change over the course of their lives.  God is working in us to make us more and more holy and grow us to be more and more like Jesus.  This is called the process of sanctification.

So if you are a young Christian and still struggle with sins, fear not, just keep trusting in God and asking him to grow you and change you.  Keep reading your Bible and praying and grow in your spiritual maturity.  Change will come - God guarantees and promises that.

View a Christian like a tree.  At first they start out as a little sapling.  But over time they grow and grow into a big tree.

The important thing to remember is that we are not saved by our sanctification process.  We are saved by faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. 

Good works contribute nothing to our salvation, they only flow from our salvation.  The reason is because Christ not only died in our place, but he lived in our place.  He lived a sinless life, on our behalf. So when we put our faith in Christ, God counts Christ's sinless life as being on our behalf, and our sins were put on Him on the cross.

In other words, when God looks at our lives, though they are sinful, since Jesus took our place and lived the life we should have lived, God views our life as though we lived sinlessly like Jesus. His righteousness becomes our righteousness. So when a Christian stands before God, we are seen as righteous as Jesus Christ Himself, and thus, we can enter heaven.

It's all about Jesus and what He did for us!

Yo Cox! Thanks for the response my friend :)

I hope I have understood your question correctly.  Please let me know if this is a satisfactory or relevant answer.

You are correct in that Adam represents a group of people, and that Christ also represents a group of people.  However, I think it is clear from the Bible that two the groups are not the same people.

Adam represents all who are "in him", and Christ represents all who are "in Him".  Thus Paul says "In Adam, all die, but in Christ, all are made alive".  In other words, All in Adam die, but all in Christ are made alive.  So the word "all" is not left open with no qualifier, but rather, has a specific qualifier.  "All who are in their respective representative".

If you read Paul's letters he is fond of talking about Christians being "in Christ". He is specifically addressing believers as being "in Christ" - not the entire human race. 

As for God being a respector of persons, allow me to turn the argument back around on you for a second.  I will argue that God being a respector of persons actually works in favor of the view you are talking about (Ie, Calvinism?), not against it.

You see, because God is no respecter of persons, in no sense can God "reward" a man for something he does.  In other words, when God bestows grace and mercy, his basis for doing so is not found in men, but in Himself.  The basis for His dispension of grace is not found in men, because as you pointed out, God is not a respecter of persons.  But rather, His basis, His reason for giving mercy to person A and not person B is found in Himself and His own wise counsel.

I believe this is Paul's argument in Romans 9. He says:

"So then, it does not depend on man's will or exertion, but on God who has mercy".

In other words, the basis for God's mercy is found in Himself, the giver of mercy, not in the recipients of that mercy.

Because God is no respector of persons :)

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

There must be a good reason why God has mercy on one and not the other?

the only possible reason I can think of is that it's because God in His foreknowledge knows what 'heart' someone will have. He knows who are the 'rotten apples' and who are not.

Hey Cox!

In fact, the Greek does allow for this.  The word we translate "all" is the Greek word "pas" which is defined this way:


  1. individually
        1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
  2. collectively
        1. some of all types

However, we do not have to go to Greek definitions of grammar to see that this is Paul's meaning in 1 Cor 15:22, because the very next verse tells us who Paul is referring to.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

So the ones that are "made alive" are "those who belong to Christ".

Next you said:



I agree my friend!  However, I think what Paul is trying to teach us in Romans 9 is that while there is a reason, that doesn't mean it is found in men, but rather, in God Himself.  In other words, what's important to understand is that just because the reason for God's choice is not found in men, that doesn't mean that there is no reason altogether.  The reason is found in God Himself, not anywhere else:

Rom 9:11-16
(11)  though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
(12)  she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
(13)  As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
(14)  What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
(15)  For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(16)  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Paul explains this by giving us the example of that famous pair of twins Jacob and Esau.  Jacob received undeserved blessings and mercy, and Esau was passed over, as it were, to receive justice. Paul's argument is that God's choice was not based on anything in the men, "not because of works, but because of him (God) who calls...".  And the reason is "So that God's purpose in election(choosing) will stand".

In other words, if God's choice of Jacob over Esau was based on what God fore-saw about the men, then His choice of them wouldn't have been "according to His own purpose in election", but rather, it would have been according to something else - their works.

This is why Paul concludes "So then, it does not depend on man's will...but on God who has mercy".

The point is, there IS a reason, but it is only known by God.  The reason is simply: God's purpose.  I believe the Bible makes this clear elsewhere:

2Ti 1:9  [he] saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Eph 1:4  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5  he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:11  In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

The important thing I'm trying to say is that just because the reason is not found in men that doesn't mean that no reason exists.  There IS a reason - it's found in God and His own purpose and will.

Then you said:



The first thing that came to mind my friend is that Bible describes us all as being those "rotten apples".  There is not a person who is inherently more righteous than another person. The Bible describes mankind collectively as having evil hearts, being children of wrath.

Gen 8:21 for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Paul describes all Christians as once in the past--

Eph 2:1-3
(1)  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
(2)  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
(3)  among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

In other words, we all have wicked hearts.  So there's no way God can foresee someone who doesn't have a wicked heart.  The description of every single Christian, prior to beign a Christian, is "we were dead in sins, following the course of the world, we lived in the passions of our flesh".

What you are saying is that God foresaw that some people didn't fit this mold, or match these descriptions, but that they were "good apples". But this idea is not Biblical my friend, it is a denial of the doctrine of sin!

So, if a person's behaviour, in no way has a bearing on salvation, then why does God not have mercy on everyone?  This doesn't make sense.

If we look at Jesus' teachings, we see that He stressed people's behaviour as the cause of their final outcomes: those who do good go off to life, and those who do bad go off to destruction.

Why is Jesus stressing our choices (behaviour), if things are predetermined to be a certain way?

I think I'm getting all mixed up here.  If you could give me an outline of how you see God's plan being worked out then I might understand all this better. (I don't know much about Calvinism).

Then, through this 'elect bride' the rest of creation will be reconciled back to God so that God will be all in all?  I know I'm clutching at straws here.  By the way, do you believe that the 'rejects' the non elect, are tortured for ever?

God seems to be controlling all events and predetermines honourable and dishonourable 'vessels', so then why are we held accountable and why bother to try to be good if things are already determined?

The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other.

I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring!

The Bible stresses obedience (works) in order to be saved ('do not eat or you will die', 'do not kill, steal etc, or you will die', and yet Paul seems to be saying that our obedience or disobedience has nothing to do with salvation.

I can't just say 'I believe in Jesus' and then continue to kill, steal etc.  I have to make an effort to change.  It's still a two way process or covenant surely.  Jesus provides the ransom freely indeed, but once you are ransomed, you still have to make an effort to be transformed into Christ. 

One last point.  If you are right, then this is the reality: God deliberately created the majority of the human race for the sole purpose of suffering for eternity in order to 'uphold' His glory.  (Only a 'few' vessels of honour are needed, to uphold God's glory it seems).  He deliberatey made them vessels of destruction and they did exactly what God foreordained them to do.  If God is love, then why would He bring someone into existence just to suffer? 

God does not wish anyone to be destroyed, but for all to come to repentance'.

I can't love a God who would have that as His plan. 

  I would like to share a quote with you from Charles Spurgeon:

''The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other.

I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring!''