Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register  
Calendar  |  Quick Links  |  
   


You are here: Index > Anthropology > Anthropology > Topic : Some quotes from Luther.

Page 3 of 3<<<123All


Threaded Mode | Tell a friend | Print  

Some quotes from Luther.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
Posted on # April 29, 2010, 2:01 am | Post: 30
Group: Member
Posts: 118
Status:
Quote From : eternally-gratefull April 28, 2010, 6:40 pm

Like I said before. You do not have to respond to the non scriptural stuff. I am so sick of responding to them myself. they do nothing.

But would like response to the scriptural aspects such as eph 1  and justification which should not take you too long..  In fact I hope that is all we respond to from now on.. for it is all that matters. And to remember a debate is a two way discussion where two people discuss there beliefs not a one way discussion where one person discusses his belief..

God bless!!


Ephesians 1 Okay Let me cite it.

Quote
Quote
Let me give you another opportunity to justify your understanding. You say God predestines or choses who will be saved based upon his foreknowledge of who will respond as to be saved, or God chose men because in his foreknowledge he knew they would chose him. The Bible says,

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph. 1:3-6

It says God Blessed us. The first of his blessing is his Choice of us before the foundation of the world. He did this so we could be holy and blameless before him, i.e., so we would be justified in his sight.


I will stop right here. Because this is just too long to try to respond properly in the end.

What is it that makes us justified??  What is the predetermining factor in our justification? 
You see when I study doctrine. I do not just assume, I look at what it means for only in this way can I understand what God is trying to say. It is far to easy to just look at a passage or a word and interpret it to fit our beliefs. So we must open our hearts and see if our beliefs match with what God is really trying to say.

Your right., Being holy and blameless does mean justified. But do we stop right here??  NO that would be a MAJOR MISTAKE. We MUST look at what it means and how it is accomplished. Ignoring these things can only  lead us to the danger of misinterpreting what it is God wants us to know.
What does the bible say about justification??

Acts 13:39
and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3: 21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one WHO HAS FAITH in Jesus.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Do you see the continuing idea of how and why  justification is given. You say I do not take the bible as a whole. But here is proof I do. I do not just take a word (justify) and put my own interpretation to it. I see what the bible has to say about it. The bible says we are justified only by faith in Christ through his blood shed on the cross. This is what faith is. We are trusting Christs work on the cross, and this is what saves (justifies us) why do you ignor these facts?? 

If God chose to make us holy and blameless( justified) and this happens through or because of faith.. then I MUST conclude that the reason God chose to do this is based on our faith in him. Because it is our faith that causes this justification. God makes it clear. I can not interpret it any other way than what God says. Do you see now what I must interpret it this way?? I do not just make my own assumptions. I interpret it the way God says it is done.



We are justified by Faith Alone; this is the cause of our justification. I did not reject Faith Alone in any way, shape, or form by what I just said. Lets look at the words.

I said "He did this so we could be holy and blameless before him, i.e., so we would be justified in his sight."
The Bible says "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."

All I did was interpret "holy and blameless before him" to mean "justified". Am I wrong in this? You just said I was right. So, what else could I have said that was wrong?

I said "so we could be" or "so we would be".
The ESV says "that we should be".
The NIV says "to be".
The NASB says "that we would be".
The KJV and NKJV says "that we should be".

My words seem to be within the accepted rendering of this passage. Unless you want to parse out the differences between so, to, and that and should, would, and could to prove some nefarious redefining of words, I don't think you have anything to complain about. I simply restated what the Text says in a faithful way.

So, I said nothing wrong, you did not state or justify I said anything wrong, and yet, you comment. I frankly find this fascinating. Who are you arguing against? Me or Paul? I said what Paul said. You even agreed with my understanding of holy and blameless before him. Therefore, I think your argument is, at least at this point, more with Paul than with me.

A couple of comments to what you wrote.
1. You didn't look at or refer directly to Eph. 1 in this initial reply. You ran as fast as you can away from this text. That is very, very telling. It seems to me you don't like the implications of this text very much. I can think of no text in all of Scripture that I would run away from like this, and you can challenge me on this.

2. It is fine and good to interpret Scripture with Scripture, but you may want to carefully read and try to understand the first text before you go running off to other verses. Jumping to other texts like you just did is the same thing Mormons and JWs do to hide from certain verses in the Bible. You don't want to make similar mistakes; do you? Read and interpret the primary text first, then add immediate context, and then Biblical context. This is a far more consistent way to read and interpret Scripture with Scripture.

3. You concluded
Quote
If God chose to make us holy and blameless( justified) and this happens through or because of faith.. then I MUST conclude that the reason God chose to do this is based on our faith in him. Because it is our faith that causes this justification. God makes it clear. I can not interpret it any other way than what God says. Do you see now what I must interpret it this way?? I do not just make my own assumptions. I interpret it the way God says it is done.


First of all, "IF" is not correct. God did chose to make us holy and blameless before him, that is the point of Eph. 1:4.

Secondly, of course, this happens through and because of Faith. Everyone agrees with this conclusion.

Thirdly, Why MUST you conclude God choice was based on our Faith? You, yourself, said "Faith is a gift from God". Why couldn't our Justification be based on our faith and our faith be based on God's choice? That is the real question. All you did was pronounce your answer based on nothing but your own perspective. You claim it is "what God says", but God never says make a choice to have faith in me and you will be saved, or anything else like it. There is a jump in your logic here; you are projecting your own understanding to be the same as what God says without justification.

You, yourself, just said "I can not interpret it any other way than what God says." This statement equates your understanding to be the same as the word of God in this context, and it is a slap in my face. Aren't we interpreting the Bible as to see what God says? Isn't this kind of jumping the gun and starting at the finish line?

Think about the way you are arguing. It is unfair, circular, and invalid (BTW, none of these words mean untrue).

Quote
Quote
Secondly, he predestined us to be adopted as sons. The reason, for God’s actions, is basically the same as before, but this time God has determined how he would work in time as to accomplish his goal of adoption.
I will be honest. I do not understand wht your trying to say. Are you saying it is through adoption that we are justified? I do not want to respond to this until I am sure I understand what your saying.


Predestine means to determine beforehand. It is a simply word with only one meaning. The only question is "what is being determined?". In this context, God is determining who will be adopted as sons. Personally, I take predestination to also include HOW something will happen along with that it will happen. In other words, God determines beforehand who will be adopted as children of God, and God determines beforehand how they will come to be in this state of adoption—including who witnesses to them, what things will be said, when it will happen, etc. etc. etc.

No, I am not saying that through adoption we are Justified. I am saying that how we are brought to faith, how we are justified, and that we will be justified and adopted were predestined by God from before the foundation of the world, because only those who are justified are adopted.

Quote

Quote
What is the basis for this choice and predestination? What does Eph. 1:6 say is the basis for these blessings? Answer: “according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace,”. By his will to praise his grace. NOTHING ABOUT FOREKNOWLEDGE! Nothing. Do you see this? A perfect time to expound upon this doctrine; it is a perfect time to say how God predestines according to his foreknowledge of who will be saved, and Paul declares the reasoning behind who is chosen to be by his will for his praise. Why add foreknowledge when it is expressly left out of this passage?

Why would paul have to use the word foreknowledge? for one it is used enough in other areas of scripture that we can know it is where it comes from. Secondly, if you would not just pick parts of the passage, but read it as a whole you would see it is not even needed, for Paul explains exactly not only how and why, but what is actually predestined.

  11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Why did you leave vs 12 out? Paul explains exactly what is predestined. THAT WE WHO TRUST (HAVE FAITH) IN CHRIST. He does not just leave it there but he continues.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Can you not see? paul makes it quite clear what happens.

1. We hear the word ( the gospel)
2. We place our trust in the word (the gospel)
3. We are sealed with the HS, who is the guarantee of our eternal life.

Not only this. he makes it clear. ALL THESE THINGS ARE TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY.

Now I ask.. Why did he need to use foreknowledge? He said those who hear and believe are predestined.. He did not have to say it was based on his foreknowledge, It is known. Because if we who believe are predestined. then predestination comes because of those who believe..  Do you see how it fits together in perfect harmony??



1. Why would Paul have to quote foreknowledge? Because, if you are right, it is the very foundation of everything he is speaking about in this passage. It just seem awfully mean of Paul to leave this out of the Letter to the Ephesians. After all, this was before people had all of the Bible. By the way, this argument is not conclusive. It is only speculative, but it is still a very good question. The real stumper is "why would Paul say God chose and predestined according to the purpose of his will?"

BTW, Why would Paul say according to the purpose of his will? Doesn't this directly imply the choice was not based upon us but upon God. Doesn't this directly imply the choice of those who will be justified and adopted is in God's hands and not man's? I think it does, and I don't think you have any real, honest, consistent answer to this question.

2. You cited v11-14 of Eph. 1. Good; you looked to the immediate context instead of jumping to other books.

Frankly, I did not mention v11-14 because I had already made my point with v3-6. v11-14 supports my conclusion as well.

Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

Why have we have obtained an inheritance? We have obtained an inheritance by "being predestined." According to what are we predestined? "According to the purpose of Him." What does this Him do? "Works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Eph. 1:12 THAT we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

"That" implies what is before is the cause of that which occurs after. Those who first trusted in Christ came to be to the praise of His glory because God predestined us to obtain an inheritance. In other words, Paul, his fellow missionaries, and the Apostles, those who first trusted in Christ, came to be a praise to God's glory by God causing their message to effectually being people Christ so that they too might obtain an inheritance.

Eph. 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

v13-14 starts a new blessing. I don't see how this is relevant. Of course, Christians trust and believe in God. Christians trust after hearing the word. Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing. And all of these things from v3 through v14 are to the praise of His glory. v13-14 has nothing to do with how or why God chose or predestined. It has nothing to do with the disagreement we are having.

I see no problem with Eph. 1:11-14. This passage seem to support Calvinism too.

3. You then conclude
Quote
He said those who hear and believe are predestined.. He did not have to say it was based on his foreknowledge, It is known. Because if we who believe are predestined. then predestination comes because of those who believe..  Do you see how it fits together in perfect harmony??


Firstly, He didn't say those who hear and believe are predestined as to give a logical order: believing causes one to be predestined. If we believe, if we trust, if we are saved, then we know we have been predestined. The order goes the other way. You have no reason to reverse the order. It doesn't say we are predestined because we believed. It actually says we are justified because we were chosen. It implies we are adopted because God predestined us to be adopted and we believe because he predested all things and works out all things according to the good pleasure of his will.

You have asserted another logical order WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE!

Secondly, "if we who believe are predestined, then predestination comes because of those who believe." is an illogical statement. There is no reason to believe it. You simply assumed and asserted a conditional, and then, you applied it to the text. You just forced the text to be interpreted your way without any justification. This is EISEGETING THE TEXT. This is completely wrong. This is not respecting the text. This is forcing the text to say what you want it to say, and that is BAD!

Thirdly, what you are presenting is a logically coherent system, and I do see how you are putting it together. BUT, you are not reading the text. You are not allowing the text to speak for itself. You are abusing the text. And, it is utterly wrong!


There is more on Eph. 1, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the text so I will stop here.

God Bless.
IP: --   

Some quotes from Luther.
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # April 29, 2010, 9:38 am | Post: 31
Group: Elite Member
Posts: 292
Status:
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am
Quote From : eternally-gratefull April 28, 2010, 6:40 pm

Like I said before. You do not have to respond to the non scriptural stuff. I am so sick of responding to them myself. they do nothing.

But would like response to the scriptural aspects such as eph 1  and justification which should not take you too long..  In fact I hope that is all we respond to from now on.. for it is all that matters. And to remember a debate is a two way discussion where two people discuss there beliefs not a one way discussion where one person discusses his belief..

God bless!!


Ephesians 1 Okay Let me cite it.

Quote
Quote
Let me give you another opportunity to justify your understanding. You say God predestines or choses who will be saved based upon his foreknowledge of who will respond as to be saved, or God chose men because in his foreknowledge he knew they would chose him. The Bible says,

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph. 1:3-6

It says God Blessed us. The first of his blessing is his Choice of us before the foundation of the world. He did this so we could be holy and blameless before him, i.e., so we would be justified in his sight.


I will stop right here. Because this is just too long to try to respond properly in the end.

What is it that makes us justified??  What is the predetermining factor in our justification? 
You see when I study doctrine. I do not just assume, I look at what it means for only in this way can I understand what God is trying to say. It is far to easy to just look at a passage or a word and interpret it to fit our beliefs. So we must open our hearts and see if our beliefs match with what God is really trying to say.

Your right., Being holy and blameless does mean justified. But do we stop right here??  NO that would be a MAJOR MISTAKE. We MUST look at what it means and how it is accomplished. Ignoring these things can only  lead us to the danger of misinterpreting what it is God wants us to know.
What does the bible say about justification??

Acts 13:39
and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3: 21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one WHO HAS FAITH in Jesus.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Do you see the continuing idea of how and why  justification is given. You say I do not take the bible as a whole. But here is proof I do. I do not just take a word (justify) and put my own interpretation to it. I see what the bible has to say about it. The bible says we are justified only by faith in Christ through his blood shed on the cross. This is what faith is. We are trusting Christs work on the cross, and this is what saves (justifies us) why do you ignor these facts?? 

If God chose to make us holy and blameless( justified) and this happens through or because of faith.. then I MUST conclude that the reason God chose to do this is based on our faith in him. Because it is our faith that causes this justification. God makes it clear. I can not interpret it any other way than what God says. Do you see now what I must interpret it this way?? I do not just make my own assumptions. I interpret it the way God says it is done.



We are justified by Faith Alone; this is the cause of our justification. I did not reject Faith Alone in any way, shape, or form by what I just said. Lets look at the words.

I said "He did this so we could be holy and blameless before him, i.e., so we would be justified in his sight."
The Bible says "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."

Yes! Another way of saying it is that he chose us before the foundation of the world that we should be justified. Your were right in saying this, this is why I agreed.
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am


All I did was interpret "holy and blameless before him" to mean "justified". Am I wrong in this? You just said I was right. So, what else could I have said that was wrong?


It seems you misunderstood me, I am sorry, I did not mean you were wrong in saying that "holy and blameless" = "justified" for it is through our justification that we are declared "holy and blameless" or a better term "declared righteous" which is what Justified means.. I was not arguing this. sorry if I worded it wrong or you felt that way.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am


I said "so we could be" or "so we would be".
The ESV says "that we should be".
The NIV says "to be".
The NASB says "that we would be".
The KJV and NKJV says "that we should be".

My words seem to be within the accepted rendering of this passage. Unless you want to parse out the differences between so, to, and that and should, would, and could to prove some nefarious redefining of words, I don't think you have anything to complain about. I simply restated what the Text says in a faithful way.

So, I said nothing wrong, you did not state or justify I said anything wrong, and yet, you comment.


Again, you misunderstood me. I did not say you said anything wrong. The whole point of my post was to show how being justified, which can only happen through Faith, was predetermined. God chose as eph 1 says to Make those who he chose to be justified in him.. My point was how is this justification come about? Through faith. Thus logic and an open heart should see that God chose to make those, who through faith are justified, to be holy and blameless. This was the point of my argument.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am


I frankly find this fascinating. Who are you arguing against? Me or Paul? I said what Paul said. You even agreed with my understanding of holy and blameless before him. Therefore, I think your argument is, at least at this point, more with Paul than with me.


My argument as to the point you just made is with neither, for I agree with what you said. You did however open the door to another argument, This being if we are chosen to be justified. And justification can only come through faith. Does it not seem logical that we were chosen because of our faith, to be justified in him. In fact is this not what Paul says?

11 In Him also we have
obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of
Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first TRUSTED in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.   

Just like when you used Justified to = Holy and Blameless. Is not Trust in Christ = to Faith in Christ? This was my point.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am


A couple of comments to what you wrote.
1. You didn't look at or refer directly to Eph. 1 in this initial reply. You ran as fast as you can away from this text. That is very, very telling. It seems to me you don't like the implications of this text very much. I can think of no text in all of Scripture that I would run away from like this, and you can challenge me on this.


I do not need to challenge you. Only think you misunderstood me. I did not run away from eph 1. I was not even speaking about eph 1, I was speaking about Justification. And how it is granted. evidently you did not see this as the context of this part of my discussion. So I ask you how I could have said it better to make you understand what I meant. I thought I made it clear. But evidently I failed. for this forgive me.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am


2. It is fine and good to interpret Scripture with Scripture, but you may want to carefully read and try to understand the first text before you go running off to other verses. Jumping to other texts like you just did is the same thing Mormons and JWs do to hide from certain verses in the Bible. You don't want to make similar mistakes; do you? Read and interpret the primary text first, then add immediate context, and then Biblical context. This is a far more consistent way to read and interpret Scripture with Scripture.


Again, You did not get the just of what I was saying. I was speaking about justification and how it is given. This as I hope you saw later in my responses led up to me showing the rest of eph 1.
Again. When I am studying or helping someone understand my belief, sometimes we have to stop and look at a word and see what scripture says about it before we can move on. We can not move on until we understand what and how justification is given. For both of our beliefs are dependent on knowing what and how this is given do you not agree?

This was what I tried to do. I hope you see that now..

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

3. You concluded
Quote
If God chose to make us holy and blameless( justified) and this happens through or because of faith.. then I MUST conclude that the reason God chose to do this is based on our faith in him. Because it is our faith that causes this justification. God makes it clear. I can not interpret it any other way than what God says. Do you see now what I must interpret it this way?? I do not just make my own assumptions. I interpret it the way God says it is done.


First of all, "IF" is not correct. God did chose to make us holy and blameless before him, that is the point of Eph. 1:4.


And now we get to the just of the discussion. Yes GOD DID chose to make us Holy and blameless. My if was not used as a maybe he did maybe he didn;t. It was an If...Then statement. (in other words (If this.. Then That) it is used often in discussion. and did not mean I was saying maybe he did this. I hope you see this.

Second, the point of eph 1 goes way deeper than just this. We must take the whole chapter in context to see the whole point. Which I did later, and hopefully you responded to. so I will hold of on responding further to this point now.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

Secondly, of course, this happens through and because of Faith. Everyone agrees with this conclusion.

Then is it not logical to conclude that we are chosen because of our faith? If it is faith which grants our justification. and justification and faith can not be seperated. Is it not perfectly to conclude that we were chosen based on our faith?  How can we read this to say we were chosen to have faith. and not read it we were chosen based on our faith. That is the part I am having issues with. do you understand or do I need to explain it better?

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

Thirdly, Why MUST you conclude God choice was based on our Faith? You, yourself, said "Faith is a gift from God". Why couldn't our Justification be based on our faith and our faith be based on God's choice?

This is why I posted all those verses on Justification. Justification is based on faith. They are not seperate, it is one (faith) which leads to the other. God did the work that we place our trust in. That is why it is not a work of us. We are not trusting self. we are trusting God and all he did and all he said. This is a choice. Not a work.

Why can't our faith be on Gods choice and our justification be based on our faith? Because I can not see where it says this. I see over and over our justification is based on Gods choice. and justification is only given to those who have faith. Those who do not have faith are not justified. This is what seperates a person who is justified and one who is not justified. our faith.

God did not say in eph 1 that he chose to give us faith, and because of this we are made holy and blameless. Paul said we who heard the word of truth, and trusted in the gospel of our salvation in Christ were chosen to be made holy and blameless or justified, and given the holy spirit as a guarantee. How can we read it to mean something other than what it says?

Maybe we differ because we have differing interpretations of what faith is. what do you think faith is?
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

That is the real question. All you did was pronounce your answer based on nothing but your own perspective. You claim it is "what God says", but God never says make a choice to have faith in me and you will be saved, or anything else like it. There is a jump in your logic here; you are projecting your own understanding to be the same as what God says without justification.

No. what I did is take what God says about justification. and what Paul said in eph 1 and put them together in a logical fashion. To be honest, and I have said this before. To make Gods chose to give us faith as you say, I would have to make assumptions that are not given in eph 1. I can not make my doctrine based on assumptions.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

You, yourself, just said "I can not interpret it any other way than what God says." This statement equates your understanding to be the same as the word of God in this context, and it is a slap in my face. Aren't we interpreting the Bible as to see what God says? Isn't this kind of jumping the gun and starting at the finish line?


How can it be a jump of the gun? or a slap in your face, If justification is based on faith vs no faith it would be a reach to say from the passage you gave alone to say God chose to give us faith, vs not give a person faith. That is why I posted all those other verses..And as I hope you saw. I used the rest of my posts to continue to base my argument and make my point.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am


Think about the way you are arguing. It is unfair, circular, and invalid (BTW, none of these words mean untrue).


There you go assuming again.. Why is it unfair??  I made a point. I used scripture to help my point, and I used the rest of my posts to validate my point. I hope this comes just because you have not finished reading my argument.

also of note. You just left the argument based on scripture and attacked me again.. Why? do we really need this??  It makes me think you are insecure in your belief and need to attack to justify to yourself you are right.. This is what it looks like to others when you make these attacks. So you do not misunderstand me, I am not saying you do not have faith in what you believe, I am saying when you use these tactics. those reading what yu say can percieve this is what you are doing. Again, I hope we can stick to the subject in the future. I will not say anything to attack you. Just say what I believe or see. I just pray you do not see these as attacks..

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

Quote
Quote
Secondly, he predestined us to be adopted as sons. The reason, for God’s actions, is basically the same as before, but this time God has determined how he would work in time as to accomplish his goal of adoption.
I will be honest. I do not understand wht your trying to say. Are you saying it is through adoption that we are justified? I do not want to respond to this until I am sure I understand what your saying.


Predestine means to determine beforehand. It is a simply word with only one meaning. The only question is "what is being determined?". In this context, God is determining who will be adopted as sons. Personally, I take predestination to also include HOW something will happen along with that it will happen. In other words, God determines beforehand who will be adopted as children of God, and God determines beforehand how they will come to be in this state of adoption—including who witnesses to them, what things will be said, when it will happen, etc. etc. etc.


We agree here...God sends us into Satans territory to rescue those who God predetermines will come to him.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

No, I am not saying that through adoption we are Justified. I am saying that how we are brought to faith, how we are justified, and that we will be justified and adopted were predestined by God from before the foundation of the world, because only those who are justified are adopted.

Again we agree here also. Our disagreement is on how we come to faith. so this should be a good starting point.

I also again want to split this up so it is not too long.. So will reply to the rest in my next post.
IP: --   

Some quotes from Luther.
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # April 29, 2010, 12:54 pm | Post: 32
Group: Elite Member
Posts: 292
Status:
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am
Quote

Quote
What is the basis for this choice and predestination? What does Eph. 1:6 say is the basis for these blessings? Answer: “according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace,”. By his will to praise his grace. NOTHING ABOUT FOREKNOWLEDGE! Nothing. Do you see this? A perfect time to expound upon this doctrine; it is a perfect time to say how God predestines according to his foreknowledge of who will be saved, and Paul declares the reasoning behind who is chosen to be by his will for his praise. Why add foreknowledge when it is expressly left out of this passage?

Why would paul have to use the word foreknowledge? for one it is used enough in other areas of scripture that we can know it is where it comes from. Secondly, if you would not just pick parts of the passage, but read it as a whole you would see it is not even needed, for Paul explains exactly not only how and why, but what is actually predestined.

  11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Why did you leave vs 12 out? Paul explains exactly what is predestined. THAT WE WHO TRUST (HAVE FAITH) IN CHRIST. He does not just leave it there but he continues.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Can you not see? paul makes it quite clear what happens.

1. We hear the word ( the gospel)
2. We place our trust in the word (the gospel)
3. We are sealed with the HS, who is the guarantee of our eternal life.

Not only this. he makes it clear. ALL THESE THINGS ARE TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY.

Now I ask.. Why did he need to use foreknowledge? He said those who hear and believe are predestined.. He did not have to say it was based on his foreknowledge, It is known. Because if we who believe are predestined. then predestination comes because of those who believe..  Do you see how it fits together in perfect harmony??



1. Why would Paul have to quote foreknowledge? Because, if you are right, it is the very foundation of everything he is speaking about in this passage. It just seem awfully mean of Paul to leave this out of the Letter to the Ephesians. After all, this was before people had all of the Bible. By the way, this argument is not conclusive. It is only speculative, but it is still a very good question. The real stumper is "why would Paul say God chose and predestined according to the purpose of his will?"

I must respectfully disagree here. Paul did not have to use the word foreknowledge, He says quite clear who the people who were chosen would be. As you said, predestined means predetermined. If this is the case. saying those who hear the word and place their faith in it were predetermined to be justified. Then I see no problem with saying God predetermined based on who would have faith, and who would not. Thus foreknowledge does not need to be said, because it is known..

Paul said predestined and chose according to his will because this is what God wanted to happen. What the argument is is who these people are and why they were predestined.

Think about it. It was not Gods will that Adam and Eve sinned, he did not want this to happen. It was his permissive will that allowed it to happen. These are two hugely different things.
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

BTW, Why would Paul say according to the purpose of his will? Doesn't this directly imply the choice was not based upon us but upon God. Doesn't this directly imply the choice of those who will be justified and adopted is in God's hands and not man's? I think it does, and I don't think you have any real, honest, consistent answer to this question.

No it does not. You did not read the passage, What did Paul say Gods will was?

That those who HEAR the WORD, Trust (Have faith) in the word. will be justified.

I am not reading anything into it than what it says.

So now the question goes back to you. Why would Paul say God chose them who first trusted in Christ, and add that he chose to make those who hear the word, trust in the word, will be made holy and blameless if he meant something else?? 

You see here we get into semantics.,

Paul did not say God chose to give them faith. he said he chose them who HAD FAITH. He did not say he chose to give them faith and thus the holy spirit as a guarantee. he said he chose to give them who HAD FAITH the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. And he said ALL OF THIS WAS HIS WILL AND PURPOSE.  Do you see how I would have to add words, and twist meanings to force Paul to say he gave them faith vs he gave them who had faith??  They are hugely different. 
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

2. You cited v11-14 of Eph. 1. Good; you looked to the immediate context instead of jumping to other books.


Yes, as we always should. However again. we still may need to go to other books to see what or how a word like justified is used or given.. which is what I did before I moved on. Theologians do this all the time. I had a pastor teacher from Dallas Theological seminary who would stop in his tracts to explain what justification is when going through scripture. Then continue on with the passage, He wanted us to make sure we understood what it meant before we moved on.. Many do this, and it is completely acceptable. Anyway, I hope you see now that is why I did that :)
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

Frankly, I did not mention v11-14 because I had already made my point with v3-6. v11-14 supports my conclusion as well.

I can not agree. for the reasons I gave,, vs 11 - 14 does not support your argument at all unless we change the meaning of words, change the position of words. or add words which are not there, as I showed in my last comment

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am


Eph. 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

Why have we have obtained an inheritance? We have obtained an inheritance by "being predestined." According to what are we predestined? "According to the purpose of Him." What does this Him do? "Works all things according to the counsel of His will."


We agree 100 %

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

Eph. 1:12 THAT we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

"That" implies what is before is the cause of that which occurs after. Those who first trusted in Christ came to be to the praise of His glory because God predestined us to obtain an inheritance. In other words, Paul, his fellow missionaries, and the Apostles, those who first trusted in Christ, came to be a praise to God's glory by God causing their message to effectually being people Christ so that they too might obtain an inheritance.


Where do you see the words "that their message effectually would bring people to christ?

12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.   

I do not see those words.. So in order to think this is what Paul meant I would have to assume. Again back to assumptions.. why do we do this? What is is the context of what Paul is talking about??  Predestined to be holy and blameless. So what did he mean when he said we were predestined to be? (The only conclusing I can make by taking context is that he meant to be holy and blameless.) You have to add words not there to even attempt to make paul say "be" meant to pass the message to others. Why would I want to do this?

which seems more logical?

12 that we who first trusted in Christ should effectually Spread the message so that others can  be brought to christ to the praise of His glory.   

or

12 that we who first trusted in Christ should Be (Holy and Blameless) to the praise of His glory.   

The first one to me is assumed, and out of context. The second perfectly fits context of eph 1 perfectly.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

Eph. 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

v13-14 starts a new blessing. I don't see how this is relevant. Of course, Christians trust and believe in God. Christians trust after hearing the word. Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing. And all of these things from v3 through v14 are to the praise of His glory. v13-14 has nothing to do with how or why God chose or predestined. It has nothing to do with the disagreement we are having.


What do you mean it has nothing to do with what we are saying? Paul did not start a new topic. or change his line of thought. He continued his line of thought. He is showing who is predestined. And why..  Again your making assumptions here, that paul changed his line of thought. I can not make my belief based on assumptions.It falls completely in line with the context of everything Paul said. starting at verse 12. Vs 11-14 is one complete thought. not two.. why would we split up what he said to make him mean two different things?? Think about it. In verse 12, he said we who had faith, then he continues here with when YOU. who is you?? is it not the people Paul is writing to who had the faith and received what God predestined?  I see a continuation of thought here, not a different thought.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

I see no problem with Eph. 1:11-14. This passage seem to support Calvinism too.


Again I must respectfully disagree, In order for this to support calvanism. too many assumptions and to many thoughts and ideas have to be injected into the passage which are not there.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am

3. You then conclude
Quote
He said those who hear and believe are predestined.. He did not have to say it was based on his foreknowledge, It is known. Because if we who believe are predestined. then predestination comes because of those who believe..  Do you see how it fits together in perfect harmony??


Firstly, He didn't say those who hear and believe are predestined as to give a logical order: believing causes one to be predestined. If we believe, if we trust, if we are saved, then we know we have been predestined. The order goes the other way. You have no reason to reverse the order. It doesn't say we are predestined because we believed. It actually says we are justified because we were chosen. It implies we are adopted because God predestined us to be adopted and we believe because he predested all things and works out all things according to the good pleasure of his will.


Thus the whole point I made in my post. Your right, we are predestined because we are chosen. We are Predestined to be justified. We are predestined to be adopted. But.. why are we justified? Because we had faith. No where in this passage does it say we are chosen to have faith. quite the apposite. it says we are justified or chosen because we had faith. as I have shown in my previos posts.

secondly. "works out all things according to his will" has nothing to do with God chosing to give us faith or forcing the matter. Why can't the argument that he worked out his will. that all who have faith are justified?  This is what Paul is implying in eph 1..


Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am
You have asserted another logical order WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE!


I gave plenty of evidence. Just because you can not see it, or do not believe it does not mean it is not so.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am
Secondly, "if we who believe are predestined, then predestination comes because of those who believe." is an illogical statement. There is no reason to believe it. You simply assumed and asserted a conditional, and then, you applied it to the text. You just forced the text to be interpreted your way without any justification. This is EISEGETING THE TEXT. This is completely wrong. This is not respecting the text. This is forcing the text to say what you want it to say, and that is BAD!



Again your making assumptions which are not founded on fact. but on your unwillingness to open your heart.

exegesis huh?

11 In Him also we (We, those who Paul is writing to)have
obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of
Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.    (Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith,should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory)
13 In Him you (You, The people he wrote to, who first had faith. Paul is continuing the thought of we who had faith. and is going to show them what this faith did) also trusted,
after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in
whom also, having believed,(Vs those who have not believed) you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of
promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, (The HS is given as a sign and seal that when we are presented on judgment day, we have the possession which God promised, nothing can take this away as long as we are sealed. and we are sealed until this day of redemption. which means we can not lose salvation) to the praise of His glory.(all of this, the predestined adoption as sons, Made blameless and holy or justified, and the seal of the spirit who is our guarantee based on the fact we chose to place our trust in the gospel after we heard the word of truth is done to the praise of HIS glory.. Why? Because he did all the work which we placed our trust in)

So you see. My interpretation goes according to the flow of what Paul said. I did not interject meaning where it was not founded. I did not change the meaning of words. I did not go out of Context. The flow of Pauls statements run smooth and unbroken. He did not change his thought. he continued his thought.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 29, 2010, 2:01 am
Thirdly, what you are presenting is a logically coherent system, and I do see how you are putting it together. BUT, you are not reading the text. You are not allowing the text to speak for itself. You are abusing the text. And, it is utterly wrong!


on the contrary, Your adding words and meaning to the text. Your making paul change the his thoughts and meaning when it is clear he is continuing his thought. And your forcing pauls words to go against what he said.

As you said, this is utterly wrong!

As I have said. I can not interpret a passage based on assumptions.  So for you to help me understand your thoughts. you must answer these questions.

1. Why do you want to interject that Paul said we were chosen to have faith when it is not stated or infered.
2. Why did paul say they were chosen who had faith. And not say we were chosen to have faith. they have two different meanings.
3. Why did you interject a meaning that Paul meant their message to effectually Spread the message so that others can  be brought to christ when it is not eve referenced or infered?
4. Why do you try to break up pauls message between vs 12 and 13 to mean two different things, when it is clear as the "we" and "you" are the same people. meaning he was continuing his thought. not changing it?
5. Why, if faith is the basis for justification, and it is not infered here that faith was given, but through faith that we are given, do you refuse to acknowledge that it is perfectly reasonable to infer that our predestination was based on our faith. and not the cause of it. And all of it gives God the glory. But it is completely the work of God we are trusting. And not ourselves.

I look forward to your reply..

God bless  :D

Edited by eternally-gratefull : April 29, 2010, 12:59 pm
IP: --   

Some quotes from Luther.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
Posted on # April 30, 2010, 8:01 am | Post: 33
Group: Member
Posts: 118
Status:
Eternally-Grateful.

To save time, I have decided to give you the lead on this discussion and simply answer the questions you asked at the end.


1. Why do you want to interject that Paul said we were chosen to have faith when it is not stated or inferred?

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him

God chose us, those who will be Christians, so that, in order that, they would be justified. This statement of Scripture declares a causal progression with God’s choice, election, being the logically prior, sufficient condition to justification, i.e., if God chose you, then you will be justified. Faith is also a logically prior, sufficient condition for justification. At this point, we have a choice: (1) God chose who would have faith, that this faith would be counted as righteousness and they would be justified, (2) God chose what condition (faith) man must meet to be saved, or (3) God chose, on some criteria, condition (i.e., faith), those he would count as righteous.

The first interpretation is clear and direct to the text. We are the ones who are being predestined to be justified. I know of no other way to interpret this verse. The second and third are convoluted and not found in this text.  “How one is saved” is not being chosen here. God is not choosing “the mode of salvation”, i.e, faith alone. God is not choosing people based on some condition. People are the ones who are chosen, and God is choosing individual people to be justified according to (or based upon) the purpose of his will, not according to their faith. That is the simple reading of the text.

2. Why did Paul say they were chosen who had faith, and not say we were chosen to have faith. They have two different meanings.

You are right that these two phrases have different meanings. But, Eph. 1 does not say “they were chosen who had faith”. It says we were chosen “to be” justified (NIV). The Bible doesn’t say what you are claiming Paul said. v11-14 does not mention God’s choice. Predestination is not a choice but a action. It is God fixing the very course of history for his means.

3. Why did you interject a meaning that Paul meant their message to effectually Spread the message so that others can  be brought to christ when it is not eve referenced or inferred?

The “we” in v12 is a different group of people from the rest of the “we/us”s in the passage. The “we” in v12 are those “who were the first to hope in Christ”; it is being contrasted with the you, those who are receiving the letter. “The first to hope in Christ” are the Apostles, including Paul and maybe some of the missionaries with Paul. v11-12 says God predestined us, to obtain an inheritance, so that the Apostles, including Paul and maybe some of the missionaries with Paul might be to the praise of his Glory. How did Paul and his fellow Apostles become to the praise of his Glory related to these followers who also obtained and inheritance? I simply postulated a reasonable answer to this relevant question. There are other reasonable answers to this question.


4. Why do you try to break up Pauls message between vs 12 and 13 to mean two different things, when it is clear as the "we" and "you" are the same people. meaning he was continuing his thought. not changing it?

This one has to do with the structure of the overarching passage. In Greek, v3-14 is one long sentence. In v4-14, Paul is describing the “spiritual blessing” he mentioned in v3. The spiritual blessings include God’s choice (v4), predestination (v5), redemption (v7), forgiveness (v7; some take forgiveness has a restatement of redemption. I don’t care how you take it: one blessing or two separate blessings.), making known to us the mystery of his will (v9), obtaining an inheritance (v11), and being sealed with Holy Spirit (v13). v11-12 pertain to obtaining an inheritance. v13-14 pertain to being sealed with the Holy Spirit. There is no reason to jump across this conceptual barrier as to imply that we are predestined because we chose to believe. This is not the logic or flow of Paul’s letter.

5. Why, if faith is the basis for justification, and it is not infered here that faith was given, but through faith that we are given, do you refuse to acknowledge that it is perfectly reasonable to infer that our predestination was based on our faith. and not the cause of it. And all of it gives God the glory. But it is completely the work of God we are trusting. And not ourselves.

This question is based upon your understanding of v11-14 which I still believe is completely fallacious, so I cannot answer it directly. I have read and stated v3-6 clearly and correctly. There is nothing wrong with how I interpreted it. It means something. You have not interacted with v4-6. You simply applied your understanding of v11-14 onto 4-6. Deal with the over arching grammatical structure.  Explain to me why your interpretation of v11-14 is correct. If my critiques, so far, of your interpretation are incorrect, then I obviously still don’t understand your perspective, and I need further explanation.

By the way, you gave this “exegesis”.
Quote
11 In Him also we (We, those who Paul is writing to)have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. (Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith,should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory) 13 In Him you (You, The people he wrote to, who first had faith. Paul is continuing the thought of we who had faith. and is going to show them what this faith did) also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed,(Vs those who have not believed) you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, (The HS is given as a sign and seal that when we are presented on judgment day, we have the possession which God promised, nothing can take this away as long as we are sealed. and we are sealed until this day of redemption. which means we can not lose salvation) to the praise of His glory.(all of this, the predestined adoption as sons, Made blameless and holy or justified, and the seal of the spirit who is our guarantee based on the fact we chose to place our trust in the gospel after we heard the word of truth is done to the praise of HIS glory.. Why? Because he did all the work which we placed our trust in)


Simple errors in this “exegesis”, and things you need to take into account as you answer my argument.
1) we (We, those who Paul is writing to):
We is in the 1st person plural. It includes Paul.

2) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. (Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith,should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory):

“We who first trusted in Christ” is not the same group of people as the “you” in v13 or the “we” in v11. “We”, in v11, is all Christians. “We who first trusted in Christ”, in v12, refers to Paul and those fellow ministers with him. “You”, in v13, refers to the listeners or readers of Paul’s letter. You need to defend your groups, if you want me to agree your interpretation.

3) You have ignored “who first trusted in Christ”’s context (the phrase’s context) to the first century Church. The listeners cannot be the first who trusted in Christ. This makes no sense. Why would a Christian, in the first century, in Asia Minor, think of themselves as “the first who trusted in Christ”. The ones “who first trusted in Christ” from their perspective was the Jews, Paul and his friends, who shared this good news with them.

4)You misplaced what was being predestined. “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”. Who/what is being predestined? We are predestined. “Obtaining an inheritance” is what is being predestined for us. God is predestining us to obtain an inheritance. This is what the passage is saying.

In this passage, God is not predestining a plan for salvation or choosing who will be saved based on some condition that man meets (faith). God is predetermining the very course of history. The object of predestination in the Bible is always man and/or what man will do the course of history. For example, God predetermined all the events having to do with the Crucification of Christ including the free acts of men, God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestined us for adoption as sons, and God predestined us to obtain an inheritance. God does not predestine his plan.

Predestination is the application of his plan on history.

5) Eternally-Gratefull, you correctly identified the group connected to the “you”, in v13, but you ignored the fact that this “you” is distinct from the “we” in v11 and 12 because “you” is in the 2nd person and “we” is in the 1st person. “We”, in v11, is all Christians, “we” in v12 is the Apostles, and “you” in v13 is the readers of the letter.

6) The phrase “also trusted” is including the readers, “you” with the group who first trusted, “we” v12.

7) v11-14 does not mention God’s choice. Predestination is not the same thing as choice.


God Bless.
IP: --   

Some quotes from Luther.
eternally-gratefull
Posted on # April 30, 2010, 12:36 pm | Post: 34
Group: Elite Member
Posts: 292
Status:
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

Eternally-Grateful.

To save time, I have decided to give you the lead on this discussion and simply answer the questions you asked at the end.


1. Why do you want to interject that Paul said we were chosen to have faith when it is not stated or inferred?

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him

God chose us, those who will be Christians, so that, in order that, they would be justified. This statement of Scripture declares a causal progression with God’s choice, election, being the logically prior, sufficient condition to justification, i.e., if God chose you, then you will be justified. Faith is also a logically prior, sufficient condition for justification. At this point, we have a choice:


Agree so far! Except will go further, and point out a gramatical problem, like you like to do to me ( althought I think most of the time you are being to critical, like here I am sure you do not mean there are other requirements, but wanted to point out how rediculous it is to make take grammar to serious, and point out only errors here to make your point.)
Faith is not a logical sufficient condition. It is the only condition. without faith, there is no justification. Saying it is just a logical sufficient condition leaves open the fact that there could be other conditions.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

(1) God chose who would have faith, that this faith would be counted as righteousness and they would be justified, (2) God chose what condition (faith) man must meet to be saved, or (3) God chose, on some criteria, condition (i.e., faith), those he would count as righteous.

The first interpretation is clear and direct to the text.


Yet again you did not prove you point. Like I said earlier, Paul did not say we are chosen to have faith. He made it clear we who have (or had) faith were chosen. Again using semantics. Your point is lost in the fact Paul did not say we were chosen to have faith. But we who had faith were chosen. I asked you this earlier in my post you did not respond. so here would be a good time to respond;

basically, If you are correct, I would have expected paul to write like this:

11 In Him also we have
obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of
Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first (were Chosen to be able to trust) in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.    .

If they were chosen to be able to trust as you say, then why did Paul not say it? instead of making a statement that we who first trusted. Why should I interject, or assume a meaning that is not readily known, or infered by the text. Paul said we who first trusted,  meaning they made their own decision to trust Christ. it was not coerced, or forced, it was a free will choice. I can not interpret it any other way.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in
whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of
promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

[b] [/b]Again here, Paul did not say they were "chosen" to trust or believe, as I would expect him to say if you were correct. He said they did two things. They heard the gospel, and after they heard, they chose to trust in what the gospel said, and because of this they were saved and sealed by the spirit.

how can you ignore the fact of sentence structure. Paul said after they did 2 things (hear the word and trust it), they were sealed.  Paul is making a statement of fact, that two things these people did caused the very thing Paul has been speaking of, and that all they were promised through the gospel (the inheritance, adoption as sons, and made holy and blameless) was not only given to them. but had the seal of the HS as a guarantee. And that their chosing to trust Christ praises God. Just like when we chose to trust God and do the things God wants us to do. God gets the glory, not us. But we have to make a personal decision to trust God, and do those things, and not rely on self. The only difference is here we are trusting Christ alone, After salvation, we are trusting Christ to give us the power to do what it is he wants us to do, but we have to act. where here, there is no action, only Faith.

I can not twist this to say paul is trying to say they were chosen to have faith, when paul did not in any place in this passage say this is what happened. If you want to prove it, You have to show how paul said we were chosen to have faith, and did not say we were given these things because we heard and had faith. otherwise, I can not see it in this passage, and am not going to twist what Paul said, or make an assumtion he said something which other than what he literally said.[b]
[/b]
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

We are the ones who are being predestined to be justified. I know of no other way to interpret this verse.


I agree. we are predestined to be justified. You are 100 % correct.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

The second and third are convoluted and not found in this text.  “How one is saved” is not being chosen here. God is not choosing “the mode of salvation”, i.e, faith alone. God is not choosing people based on some condition. People are the ones who are chosen, and God is choosing individual people to be justified according to (or based upon) the purpose of his will, not according to their faith. That is the simple reading of the text.


I can't agree, Paul said, Whoever heard the gospel and trusted were sealed. He was speaking of them receiving what he also received. and why they received it. The requirements here are hearing and trusting. Not just hearing alone, Those who have heard, and not yet trusted did not receive the promises God is offering, Paul makes it clear, they have what God promised, because they did the two requirements. Again your interjecting something that is against what Paul said.

If I go to a group of military people and say they are here and receive all the military has to offer because they heard their recruiter and trusted what he said. I can not try to twist his words and say they are here and will receive all the military has to offer because they were chosen to go to the recruiter and believe what he said without saying this is actually what happened. I would have to assume it is right without proof, or interject this is what happened without any acknowledgment this is what happened.
The first is a statement of fact. two causes which gave them the promises, The second is an assumption, which can not be founded in what was said, but would have to be assumed that the military went out, Looked at everyone, and chose who to send to the recruiter, or who to send the recruiter to, which is not said, not implied, or even spoken of. Not to mention, to continue your belief, if the second was true, The military would have to 1. Know the people they chose would freely believe and join, or 2, force them to join, which again is not stated or implied.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


2. Why did Paul say they were chosen who had faith, and not say we were chosen to have faith. They have two different meanings.

You are right that these two phrases have different meanings. But, Eph. 1 does not say “they were chosen who had faith”. It says we were chosen “to be” justified (NIV). The Bible doesn’t say what you are claiming Paul said. v11-14 does not mention God’s choice. Predestination is not a choice but a action. It is God fixing the very course of history for his means.


To believe this you have to take out vs 11 - 14. For paul makes it clear, that two actions enabled them (not only paul but also those who he was speaking to, to recieve the things which were promised.
Second. Your definition of predestination is not quite correct. It not only can be a choice, but an action which must be taken by two partied. If I predetermine that my oldest daughter will receive my inheritance. I must state so in my will, which is an action. But my daughter must also act or she will not receive it. Inaction on her part due to the fact she either does not have faith I have anything worth offering her, and thus a refusal to do what is needed to get what I left her, or not going to hear whether I left her anything or not. will leave her out on the cold, and she will receive nothing I wanted to give her.
The same Goes with what God is offering. If I do not have faith that he has something worth giving, or do not listen to God say he has something he is offering me, I will be left out with no inheritance.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


3. Why did you interject a meaning that Paul meant their message to effectually Spread the message so that others can  be brought to christ when it is not eve referenced or inferred?

The “we” in v12 is a different group of people from the rest of the “we/us”s in the passage. The “we” in v12 are those “who were the first to hope in Christ”; it is being contrasted with the you, those who are receiving the letter. “The first to hope in Christ” are the Apostles, including Paul and maybe some of the missionaries with Paul.

I agree and see your point that Paul was speaking of two groups. However it does not explain why you interjected what God predestined in these verses.
The problem with your theory is trying to seperate 11 from 13. in vs 11, In him we also, Paul is making it clear that they were not the only ones to receive this. But paul and those with him also received it. why did he recieve it? because he stated in vs 12. he had faith in Christ. Then if vs 13, he says they also. meaning it was not just paul and those with him, but everything that was promised was given to all of them. and why did they recieve it? Because they too had faith in Christ. Your trying to assume meaning without prove, and interject something that may or may not be true. Since when do we base our faith in hypotheticals (may or may not be true) and not on facts?  My theory is not a hypothetical. Paul also recieved what he said they recieved through faith (vs 11 - 12) and they also recieved what Paul said they received based on faith ( 13 - 14) This is the only logical conclusion we can have without a hypothetical or assumption being added to the text. 

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

v11-12 says God predestined us, to obtain an inheritance, so that the Apostles, including Paul and maybe some of the missionaries with Paul might be to the praise of his Glory.


No, Paul is saying they also were destined to receive the inheritance. Just like the ones he was writing to. And he stated how they got it. By having faith. He was including himself and those with him with the people he was writing to. It was not just them who recieved it. It was "we" paul and those who were with him, and all the churches.

Again your theory is based on a hypothetical and assumption.


Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

How did Paul and his fellow Apostles become to the praise of his Glory related to these followers who also obtained and inheritance? I simply postulated a reasonable answer to this relevant question. There are other reasonable answers to this question.


read what you just posted. How did paul receieve what they also recieved. You just made my last few points valid. This is what paul was saying. He also received what they recieved, This does not prove your point as to why you are trying to interject paul to say he chose them to give the gospel so others could hear and also believe, Is it not all of our responsibilities to spread the gospel? or just the apostles and leaders?? Paul was making a statement of fact. They also received the promises because they had faith. There is nothing in this passage which would lead us to conclude paul meant anything other than this.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

4. Why do you try to break up Pauls message between vs 12 and 13 to mean two different things, when it is clear as the "we" and "you" are the same people. meaning he was continuing his thought. not changing it?

This one has to do with the structure of the overarching passage. In Greek, v3-14 is one long sentence. In v4-14, Paul is describing the “spiritual blessing” he mentioned in v3. The spiritual blessings include God’s choice (v4), predestination (v5), redemption (v7), forgiveness (v7; some take forgiveness has a restatement of redemption. I don’t care how you take it: one blessing or two separate blessings.), making known to us the mystery of his will (v9), obtaining an inheritance (v11), and being sealed with Holy Spirit (v13). v11-12 pertain to obtaining an inheritance. v13-14 pertain to being sealed with the Holy Spirit. There is no reason to jump across this conceptual barrier as to imply that we are predestined because we chose to believe. This is not the logic or flow of Paul’s letter.


On the contrary, and yet again your basing your whole theory on assumptions.

Do you understand what a seal is? It is a document given by a king, which states declaration from the king. His seal guarantees that this declaration is from the king himself. and as long as it is not broken. everything that is stated must be given.

For example, if A King declares a person will receive an inheritance, will receive a position, or will receive forgiveness for something they did. The document states those things, and the seal proves it is from the king and must be carried out.

What is it that God declares??

We have received and inheritance. We have been made holy and blameless (justified) We have been redeemed by Christ, We have been adopted by Him, We have been forgiven all sin, and everything else that is declared given to us through Christ is declared. The seal of the HS assures that all that is promised is from the king himself Christ)  and a guarantee that they will be carried out when we stand on judgment day. However, Unlike a kings seal, which is wax, and can be broken. The Holy Spirit is God, and his seal can never be broken. Which means all we are promised will be given.

Since the seal of the Holy Spirit is the very thing which assures all that we were predestined to receive, The things that Paul mentions are required to receive this seal (hearing the word, and having faith in it) are required to receive this seal, meaning it is required to receive all that God promised. The fact that the seal guarantees all which God declares we have been given and he predetermined we would recieve, and this seal is based on actions we must take, can not allow me to understand or believe your line of reasoning.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

5. Why, if faith is the basis for justification, and it is not infered here that faith was given, but through faith that we are given, do you refuse to acknowledge that it is perfectly reasonable to infer that our predestination was based on our faith. and not the cause of it. And all of it gives God the glory. But it is completely the work of God we are trusting. And not ourselves.

This question is based upon your understanding of v11-14 which I still believe is completely fallacious, so I cannot answer it directly. I have read and stated v3-6 clearly and correctly. There is nothing wrong with how I interpreted it.


I never said there was. I even agreed you were correct.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

It means something. You have not interacted with v4-6. You simply applied your understanding of v11-14 onto 4-6.


i can not deal with 4 - 6 without taking 11 - 14 to get context. It is as you said one sentence. meaning it is one idea. the whole idea has to be taken to get context. Taking 4 - 6 without 11 - 14 as context will cause us to possibly misinterpret 4-6. The fact is, you have to ignore 11 - 14 to make your interpretation of 4 - 6 stand. which is why you are demanding I stick to 4 - 6. I can't. I would not do it with any author of any book, and will not do it here. Context is one of the main directives in proper hermenuetics. ignoring context can only lead to misinterpretation., I am not going to ignore context just so a belief I have will stand.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

Deal with the over arching grammatical structure.  Explain to me why your interpretation of v11-14 is correct. If my critiques, so far, of your interpretation are incorrect, then I obviously still don’t understand your perspective, and I need further explanation.


Hopefully after reading my responses today you now have a better understanding.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


By the way, you gave this “exegesis”.
Quote
11 In Him also we (We, those who Paul is writing to)have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. (Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith,should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory) 13 In Him you (You, The people he wrote to, who first had faith. Paul is continuing the thought of we who had faith. and is going to show them what this faith did) also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed,(Vs those who have not believed) you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, (The HS is given as a sign and seal that when we are presented on judgment day, we have the possession which God promised, nothing can take this away as long as we are sealed. and we are sealed until this day of redemption. which means we can not lose salvation) to the praise of His glory.(all of this, the predestined adoption as sons, Made blameless and holy or justified, and the seal of the spirit who is our guarantee based on the fact we chose to place our trust in the gospel after we heard the word of truth is done to the praise of HIS glory.. Why? Because he did all the work which we placed our trust in)


Simple errors in this “exegesis”, and things you need to take into account as you answer my argument.
1) we (We, those who Paul is writing to):
We is in the 1st person plural. It includes Paul.


read my first response to you at the top of the page. This is what I mean by being overly hypocritical. Of course I knew it meant paul also.. it is rediculous to think i did not. Just like in vs 13, when he said you. He also included himself because he also did what he said they did. However he did not have to say we, because he was not writing about himself. Try not to be so overly critical. Again it makes you seem to be pointing out insignificant problems in order to tear someone down as unbelievable. That is how people who do not have much of an argument act. Those who are sincere and confident in their faith do not need to steep to such attacks. it does not help them anyway.
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

2) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. (Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith,should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory):

“We who first trusted in Christ” is not the same group of people as the “you” in v13 or the “we” in v11. “We”, in v11, is all Christians. “We who first trusted in Christ”, in v12, refers to Paul and those fellow ministers with him. “You”, in v13, refers to the listeners or readers of Paul’s letter. You need to defend your groups, if you want me to agree your interpretation.

I do not need to defend them. In vs 11 - 12 Paul is saying that he and those with him have also received what he just told them they received. He also said how they received it. (through faith) in vs 13 - 14, he said they also received it through the same faith in Christ paul had. Your right, he is talking about two groups. Your wrong by inferring what these groups mean. We also in vs 11 means Paul also received what he said they had. You also in vs 13 means they received them the same way paul did.

Your trying to read to much into the argument paul is making. and not listening to what he is saying. Your reading it to fit your theory, and not reading it to see what he really is saying. 


Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

3) You have ignored “who first trusted in Christ”’s context (the phrase’s context) to the first century Church. The listeners cannot be the first who trusted in Christ. This makes no sense. Why would a Christian, in the first century, in Asia Minor, think of themselves as “the first who trusted in Christ”. The ones “who first trusted in Christ” from their perspective was the Jews, Paul and his friends, who shared this good news with them.


I already explained what paul was refering to by saying we. We also recieved these things because of faith.. you also recieved these things because you had faith like we did. it gets no clearer than this.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

4)You misplaced what was being predestined. “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”. Who/what is being predestined? We are predestined. “Obtaining an inheritance” is what is being predestined for us. God is predestining us to obtain an inheritance. This is what the passage is saying.


Nothing I stated denies this. You are correct. Obtaining an inheritance is what is being predestined. I will not argue, nor have I argued this fact. why you think I am I do not know.
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

In this passage, God is not predestining a plan for salvation or choosing who will be saved based on some condition that man meets (faith). God is predetermining the very course of history. The object of predestination in the Bible is always man and/or what man will do the course of history. For example, God predetermined all the events having to do with the Crucification of Christ including the free acts of men, God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestined us for adoption as sons, and God predestined us to obtain an inheritance. God does not predestine his plan.

Predestination is the application of his plan on history.


Yeah. God used the free will of men to do what God predestined them to do. He did not force the men who crucified Christ to do it. They did it of there on free will, and he knew this, and had them in place so they could do it. He also did not force isreal to reject him, In fact he could have still been crucified even if isreal did not reject him, he could have used rome to do this. The fact is. all of Gods predestination do not remove mans free will. He uses mens will to put people in place where they need to be to make sure his work is done. He also does not force men to have faith in him. He gives them the word, the gospel of salvation. and asks them to chose. do we trust Christ. or do we trust self. That is his will and purpose. that All who call on the name of the lord will be saved, That all who hear and believe will be given all he promised, and not only this, he will give them his seal ( the hs) to guarantee they will get what they trusted him to give.

God did predestine his plan. It was his plan before man was even created to do the work which would be required to save his creation from eternal damnation. It was also his plan to offer this salvation to everyone, knowing not everyone would receive his offer (gift) of salvation

When someone gives me a gift. I do not have to recieve it. I can reject it and not take it. God offers his gift to all. It does not mean all will recieve, If God forces people to take it. It is not a gift given freely. it is a thing forced on people.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

5) Eternally-Gratefull, you correctly identified the group connected to the “you”, in v13, but you ignored the fact that this “you” is distinct from the “we” in v11 and 12 because “you” is in the 2nd person and “we” is in the 1st person. “We”, in v11, is all Christians, “we” in v12 is the Apostles, and “you” in v13 is the readers of the letter.


Already explained at least 3 times now. Hopefully now you see how I interpret this.
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

6) The phrase “also trusted” is including the readers, “you” with the group who first trusted, “we” v12.


Just like the we in verse 11 is including paul and those with him with the group he is writing to.
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


7) v11-14 does not mention God’s choice. Predestination is not the same thing as choice.


Your right. Just like Paul in vs 12 showed how he and those with him received their inheritance (faith) he shows in verse 13 - 14 how they received their also. God did not use choice or predestined, because he did not predestine them to have faith. He predestined them based on their faith  Why would paul explain how he received his inheritance, and how they received their's if it had no meaning.


God Bless.
IP: --   

Some quotes from Luther.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
Posted on # May 1, 2010, 8:46 am | Post: 35
Group: Member
Posts: 118
Status:
Quote From : eternally-gratefull April 30, 2010, 12:36 pm
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

Eternally-Grateful.

To save time, I have decided to give you the lead on this discussion and simply answer the questions you asked at the end.


1. Why do you want to interject that Paul said we were chosen to have faith when it is not stated or inferred?

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him

God chose us, those who will be Christians, so that, in order that, they would be justified. This statement of Scripture declares a causal progression with God’s choice, election, being the logically prior, sufficient condition to justification, i.e., if God chose you, then you will be justified. Faith is also a logically prior, sufficient condition for justification. At this point, we have a choice:


Agree so far! Except will go further, and point out a gramatical problem, like you like to do to me ( althought I think most of the time you are being to critical, like here I am sure you do not mean there are other requirements, but wanted to point out how rediculous it is to make take grammar to serious, and point out only errors here to make your point.)
Faith is not a logical sufficient condition. It is the only condition. without faith, there is no justification. Saying it is just a logical sufficient condition leaves open the fact that there could be other conditions.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

(1) God chose who would have faith, that this faith would be counted as righteousness and they would be justified, (2) God chose what condition (faith) man must meet to be saved, or (3) God chose, on some criteria, condition (i.e., faith), those he would count as righteous.

The first interpretation is clear and direct to the text.


Yet again you did not prove you point. Like I said earlier, Paul did not say we are chosen to have faith. He made it clear we who have (or had) faith were chosen. Again using semantics. Your point is lost in the fact Paul did not say we were chosen to have faith. But we who had faith were chosen. I asked you this earlier in my post you did not respond. so here would be a good time to respond;

basically, If you are correct, I would have expected paul to write like this:

11 In Him also we have
obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of
Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first (were Chosen to be able to trust) in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.    .

If they were chosen to be able to trust as you say, then why did Paul not say it? instead of making a statement that we who first trusted. Why should I interject, or assume a meaning that is not readily known, or infered by the text. Paul said we who first trusted,  meaning they made their own decision to trust Christ. it was not coerced, or forced, it was a free will choice. I can not interpret it any other way.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in
whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of
promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

[b] [/b]Again here, Paul did not say they were "chosen" to trust or believe, as I would expect him to say if you were correct. He said they did two things. They heard the gospel, and after they heard, they chose to trust in what the gospel said, and because of this they were saved and sealed by the spirit.

how can you ignore the fact of sentence structure. Paul said after they did 2 things (hear the word and trust it), they were sealed.  Paul is making a statement of fact, that two things these people did caused the very thing Paul has been speaking of, and that all they were promised through the gospel (the inheritance, adoption as sons, and made holy and blameless) was not only given to them. but had the seal of the HS as a guarantee. And that their chosing to trust Christ praises God. Just like when we chose to trust God and do the things God wants us to do. God gets the glory, not us. But we have to make a personal decision to trust God, and do those things, and not rely on self. The only difference is here we are trusting Christ alone, After salvation, we are trusting Christ to give us the power to do what it is he wants us to do, but we have to act. where here, there is no action, only Faith.

I can not twist this to say paul is trying to say they were chosen to have faith, when paul did not in any place in this passage say this is what happened. If you want to prove it, You have to show how paul said we were chosen to have faith, and did not say we were given these things because we heard and had faith. otherwise, I can not see it in this passage, and am not going to twist what Paul said, or make an assumtion he said something which other than what he literally said.[b]
[/b]
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

We are the ones who are being predestined to be justified. I know of no other way to interpret this verse.


I agree. we are predestined to be justified. You are 100 % correct.


I would like to point out that my two sentences
Quote
The first interpretation is clear and direct to the text.
and
Quote
We are the ones who are being predestined to be justified.
were directly connected to the exact same concept. The choice of God determined who would be justified. Justification requires faith, therefore God's choice determines who will be justified by faith in some way. That way is specified in v5; God predestined us to be adopted, i.e., God worked out all things necessary in history as to insure those he chose to be justified would be justified unto adoption, including faith. Please try not to comment in mid thought. I frankly could have placed a ";" between theses clauses without any change in meaning, therefore you should not have divided them.

Quote

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

The second and third are convoluted and not found in this text.  “How one is saved” is not being chosen here. God is not choosing “the mode of salvation”, i.e, faith alone. God is not choosing people based on some condition. People are the ones who are chosen, and God is choosing individual people to be justified according to (or based upon) the purpose of his will, not according to their faith. That is the simple reading of the text.


I can't agree, Paul said, Whoever heard the gospel and trusted were sealed. He was speaking of them receiving what he also received. and why they received it. The requirements here are hearing and trusting. Not just hearing alone, Those who have heard, and not yet trusted did not receive the promises God is offering, Paul makes it clear, they have what God promised, because they did the two requirements. Again your interjecting something that is against what Paul said.

If I go to a group of military people and say they are here and receive all the military has to offer because they heard their recruiter and trusted what he said. I can not try to twist his words and say they are here and will receive all the military has to offer because they were chosen to go to the recruiter and believe what he said without saying this is actually what happened. I would have to assume it is right without proof, or interject this is what happened without any acknowledgment this is what happened.
The first is a statement of fact. two causes which gave them the promises, The second is an assumption, which can not be founded in what was said, but would have to be assumed that the military went out, Looked at everyone, and chose who to send to the recruiter, or who to send the recruiter to, which is not said, not implied, or even spoken of. Not to mention, to continue your belief, if the second was true, The military would have to 1. Know the people they chose would freely believe and join, or 2, force them to join, which again is not stated or implied.



Yes, Those who trust and believe are then sealed. But, what part of v13-14 says man's choice to trust and believe is the basis for their sealing? The verses simply says "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed". There is no causal relationship being described here. All that is described in this verse is a temporal progression. These are not requirements in this text. These are simply ordered events. Paul is just giving a time marker for when one is sealed with the Holy Spirit. One is sealed after they believe in contrast to one is chosen before the foundation of the world.

Making the analogy of this concept to entering the military is completely misplaced.

1) You have no justification for it. You are simply describing you doctrine through an analogy. All you did was assert the Arminian concept of the salvation: meet these requirements, trust and believe, and then God will save you. I am sorry, but this is the exact same structure as Rome: meet these requirements, get baptized, confirmed, try not to sin, repent and do penance when you sin, take the Eucharist, etc. etc. etc., and then God will save you.  The list of requirements in Catholic Dogma are longer, and you deny that your choice to trust and believe is a work; BUT, the structure is the same. Meet these requirements, and you will be saved. Is not entering the military the exact same analogy as a day laborer working in a field for his pay? Isn't this the exact thing Paul directly condemned in Romans 4?

2) Your military analogy has another problem too. It completely IGNORES the fact that God is the other party. God is not some military wooing men to enter it by offering good benefits. God is choosing those he wishes to save, God is working out this choice in history as to accomplish it, God is redeeming, God is giving inheritances, and God is sealing. God is not passively giving salvation to all those who meet his requirements. God is saving men in spite of themselves. The very fact that you wish to equate God's salvation to a "JOB" like the military shows the inconsistency of your understanding.

"The first is a statement of fact: two causes which gave them the promises"? Wrong and completely unjustified.
"The second is an assumption..."? Really? God Chose those he would justify. He predestined, he worked out beforehand the exact course of history as to accomplish his goal of adopting the ones he justified.
"if the second was true..." or 3, change the hearts of those who do not want anything to do with God. This is not force against a will because it is the will itself that is changing. BTW, Nice job again rejecting my position based upon some perceived violence to your personhood.

Quote
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


2. Why did Paul say they were chosen who had faith, and not say we were chosen to have faith. They have two different meanings.

You are right that these two phrases have different meanings. But, Eph. 1 does not say “they were chosen who had faith”. It says we were chosen “to be” justified (NIV). The Bible doesn’t say what you are claiming Paul said. v11-14 does not mention God’s choice. Predestination is not a choice but a action. It is God fixing the very course of history for his means.


To believe this you have to take out vs 11 - 14. For paul makes it clear, that two actions enabled them (not only paul but also those who he was speaking to, to recieve the things which were promised.
Second. Your definition of predestination is not quite correct. It not only can be a choice, but an action which must be taken by two partied. If I predetermine that my oldest daughter will receive my inheritance. I must state so in my will, which is an action. But my daughter must also act or she will not receive it. Inaction on her part due to the fact she either does not have faith I have anything worth offering her, and thus a refusal to do what is needed to get what I left her, or not going to hear whether I left her anything or not. will leave her out on the cold, and she will receive nothing I wanted to give her.
The same Goes with what God is offering. If I do not have faith that he has something worth giving, or do not listen to God say he has something he is offering me, I will be left out with no inheritance.



My point was you HIGHLY EISEGETED v11-14. Therefore, I do not have to take them out of the Bible. I simply need to read the text correctly, as I JUST DID.

Nice job completely and utterly redefining the simply word "predestined". Is this how predestined is being used in Acts. 4:28? Men acted "to do whatever your (God's) hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Is God simply willing, as in writing a will, that men would be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29)? Does this even make logical sense? Or is God determining beforehand what will happen in history?

God is determining beforehand what will happen to us in history! Predestined is not "making a choice" in any way, shape, or form. You are not using the word correctly in your analogy. You already chose before writing the will. The writing of the will is the act that "predetermines" what will happen with your resources. Yes, you can put specifications in your will, but applying this concept to God in predestining his elect unto adoption/obtaining an inheritance is compete EISEGESIS. Where is this concept in the TEXT? God is the one who works out all things after the good pleasure of his will. Your analogy falls apart in every way. What second party was required for God to send down fire from heaven to consume Sodom? What second party was required for God to predetermine to wipe out the world with a flood? What second party was required for God to predetermine the events surrounding the crucification? God chooses how history will work out! He predestines! This is what this word means: to determine before hand the very destiny of history.


Quote
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


3. Why did you interject a meaning that Paul meant their message to effectually Spread the message so that others can  be brought to christ when it is not eve referenced or inferred?

The “we” in v12 is a different group of people from the rest of the “we/us”s in the passage. The “we” in v12 are those “who were the first to hope in Christ”; it is being contrasted with the you, those who are receiving the letter. “The first to hope in Christ” are the Apostles, including Paul and maybe some of the missionaries with Paul.

I agree and see your point that Paul was speaking of two groups. However it does not explain why you interjected what God predestined in these verses.
The problem with your theory is trying to seperate 11 from 13. in vs 11, In him we also, Paul is making it clear that they were not the only ones to receive this. But paul and those with him also received it. why did he recieve it? because he stated in vs 12. he had faith in Christ. Then if vs 13, he says they also. meaning it was not just paul and those with him, but everything that was promised was given to all of them. and why did they recieve it? Because they too had faith in Christ. Your trying to assume meaning without prove, and interject something that may or may not be true. Since when do we base our faith in hypotheticals (may or may not be true) and not on facts?  My theory is not a hypothetical. Paul also recieved what he said they recieved through faith (vs 11 - 12) and they also recieved what Paul said they received based on faith ( 13 - 14) This is the only logical conclusion we can have without a hypothetical or assumption being added to the text. 

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

v11-12 says God predestined us, to obtain an inheritance, so that the Apostles, including Paul and maybe some of the missionaries with Paul might be to the praise of his Glory.


No, Paul is saying they also were destined to receive the inheritance. Just like the ones he was writing to. And he stated how they got it. By having faith. He was including himself and those with him with the people he was writing to. It was not just them who recieved it. It was "we" paul and those who were with him, and all the churches.

Again your theory is based on a hypothetical and assumption.


Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

How did Paul and his fellow Apostles become to the praise of his Glory related to these followers who also obtained and inheritance? I simply postulated a reasonable answer to this relevant question. There are other reasonable answers to this question.


read what you just posted. How did paul receieve what they also recieved. You just made my last few points valid. This is what paul was saying. He also received what they recieved, This does not prove your point as to why you are trying to interject paul to say he chose them to give the gospel so others could hear and also believe, Is it not all of our responsibilities to spread the gospel? or just the apostles and leaders?? Paul was making a statement of fact. They also received the promises because they had faith. There is nothing in this passage which would lead us to conclude paul meant anything other than this.



Perhaps you should have read my answer to question 4 before you into answer 3, and Notice, I was not being dogmatic about this interpretation. Therefore, this conclusion is not something for which I was fighting. BTW, I still disagree with your reading of v11-14, and what you have said so far does not even start to interact with the grammatical structure of the passage.

Quote
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

4. Why do you try to break up Pauls message between vs 12 and 13 to mean two different things, when it is clear as the "we" and "you" are the same people. meaning he was continuing his thought. not changing it?

This one has to do with the structure of the overarching passage. In Greek, v3-14 is one long sentence. In v4-14, Paul is describing the “spiritual blessing” he mentioned in v3. The spiritual blessings include God’s choice (v4), predestination (v5), redemption (v7), forgiveness (v7; some take forgiveness has a restatement of redemption. I don’t care how you take it: one blessing or two separate blessings.), making known to us the mystery of his will (v9), obtaining an inheritance (v11), and being sealed with Holy Spirit (v13). v11-12 pertain to obtaining an inheritance. v13-14 pertain to being sealed with the Holy Spirit. There is no reason to jump across this conceptual barrier as to imply that we are predestined because we chose to believe. This is not the logic or flow of Paul’s letter.


On the contrary, and yet again your basing your whole theory on assumptions.

Do you understand what a seal is? It is a document given by a king, which states declaration from the king. His seal guarantees that this declaration is from the king himself. and as long as it is not broken. everything that is stated must be given.

For example, if A King declares a person will receive an inheritance, will receive a position, or will receive forgiveness for something they did. The document states those things, and the seal proves it is from the king and must be carried out.

What is it that God declares??

We have received and inheritance. We have been made holy and blameless (justified) We have been redeemed by Christ, We have been adopted by Him, We have been forgiven all sin, and everything else that is declared given to us through Christ is declared. The seal of the HS assures that all that is promised is from the king himself Christ)  and a guarantee that they will be carried out when we stand on judgment day. However, Unlike a kings seal, which is wax, and can be broken. The Holy Spirit is God, and his seal can never be broken. Which means all we are promised will be given.

Since the seal of the Holy Spirit is the very thing which assures all that we were predestined to receive, The things that Paul mentions are required to receive this seal (hearing the word, and having faith in it) are required to receive this seal, meaning it is required to receive all that God promised. The fact that the seal guarantees all which God declares we have been given and he predetermined we would recieve, and this seal is based on actions we must take, can not allow me to understand or believe your line of reasoning.



Assumptions? What assumptions? This is the grammatical structure of the passage. There is NO DISPUTE here among any academics. Grammatically, v3-14 is one sentence. Grammatically, Paul writes several sub-clauses to describe the spiritual blessing in his main clause. v11-12 are one sub-clause. v13-14 are another sub-clause. What did I assume?

You, however, went off on this long triad into what a seal is. Yes, we all know what a seal is. What is being sealed? Is it God's choice? Nope. It is us. We are sealed as to insure our salvation. What does this have to do with the grammatical structure of v11-12? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! What does this have to do with how we become predestined? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! We are predestined according to the good pleasure of his will, his choice, not according to our choice.

Keep on using your ERRANT definition of predestined. Keep on thinking God predestines to give us things based on our choices. Ignore what the text is actually saying. These are the ASSUMPTIONS you are bringing to the text.

Quote



Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

5. Why, if faith is the basis for justification, and it is not infered here that faith was given, but through faith that we are given, do you refuse to acknowledge that it is perfectly reasonable to infer that our predestination was based on our faith. and not the cause of it. And all of it gives God the glory. But it is completely the work of God we are trusting. And not ourselves.

This question is based upon your understanding of v11-14 which I still believe is completely fallacious, so I cannot answer it directly. I have read and stated v3-6 clearly and correctly. There is nothing wrong with how I interpreted it.


I never said there was. I even agreed you were correct.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

It means something. You have not interacted with v4-6. You simply applied your understanding of v11-14 onto 4-6.


i can not deal with 4 - 6 without taking 11 - 14 to get context. It is as you said one sentence. meaning it is one idea. the whole idea has to be taken to get context. Taking 4 - 6 without 11 - 14 as context will cause us to possibly misinterpret 4-6. The fact is, you have to ignore 11 - 14 to make your interpretation of 4 - 6 stand. which is why you are demanding I stick to 4 - 6. I can't. I would not do it with any author of any book, and will not do it here. Context is one of the main directives in proper hermenuetics. ignoring context can only lead to misinterpretation., I am not going to ignore context just so a belief I have will stand.


I didn't ignore v11-14. v11-14 does not modify any understanding found in v4-6. It is your redefinition of words that makes you ignore the plain teaching of the entire text. You redefined predestined in v11 by not looking at the grammatical structure of v11. v11 says we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined. The cause of us obtaining an inheritance was God's predestination. God predestined us to obtain an inheritance for the reason to make Paul and his Apostles the praise of his glory. It is not saying God determined that the Apostles in this passage would be to the praise of his glory. "having been predestined" points back to those who obtained an inheritance as to justify why they obtained and inheritance.

It seems you think of God as being an impotent monarch. He does nothing in time as to get his way. He is like the weak monarch who won't do anything to upset his subjects. Is this really the idea of God’s Sovereignty you get from reading the Bible? I think you need to read your Bible to see what it says.

Quote
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

Deal with the over arching grammatical structure.  Explain to me why your interpretation of v11-14 is correct. If my critiques, so far, of your interpretation are incorrect, then I obviously still don’t understand your perspective, and I need further explanation.


Hopefully after reading my responses today you now have a better understanding.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


By the way, you gave this “exegesis”.
Quote
11 In Him also we (We, those who Paul is writing to)have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. (Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith,should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory) 13 In Him you (You, The people he wrote to, who first had faith. Paul is continuing the thought of we who had faith. and is going to show them what this faith did) also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed,(Vs those who have not believed) you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, (The HS is given as a sign and seal that when we are presented on judgment day, we have the possession which God promised, nothing can take this away as long as we are sealed. and we are sealed until this day of redemption. which means we can not lose salvation) to the praise of His glory.(all of this, the predestined adoption as sons, Made blameless and holy or justified, and the seal of the spirit who is our guarantee based on the fact we chose to place our trust in the gospel after we heard the word of truth is done to the praise of HIS glory.. Why? Because he did all the work which we placed our trust in)


Simple errors in this “exegesis”, and things you need to take into account as you answer my argument.
1) we (We, those who Paul is writing to):
We is in the 1st person plural. It includes Paul.


read my first response to you at the top of the page. This is what I mean by being overly hypocritical. Of course I knew it meant paul also.. it is rediculous to think i did not. Just like in vs 13, when he said you. He also included himself because he also did what he said they did. However he did not have to say we, because he was not writing about himself. Try not to be so overly critical. Again it makes you seem to be pointing out insignificant problems in order to tear someone down as unbelievable. That is how people who do not have much of an argument act. Those who are sincere and confident in their faith do not need to steep to such attacks. it does not help them anyway.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

2) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. (Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith,should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory):

“We who first trusted in Christ” is not the same group of people as the “you” in v13 or the “we” in v11. “We”, in v11, is all Christians. “We who first trusted in Christ”, in v12, refers to Paul and those fellow ministers with him. “You”, in v13, refers to the listeners or readers of Paul’s letter. You need to defend your groups, if you want me to agree your interpretation.

I do not need to defend them. In vs 11 - 12 Paul is saying that he and those with him have also received what he just told them they received. He also said how they received it. (through faith) in vs 13 - 14, he said they also received it through the same faith in Christ paul had. Your right, he is talking about two groups. Your wrong by inferring what these groups mean. We also in vs 11 means Paul also received what he said they had. You also in vs 13 means they received them the same way paul did.

Your trying to read to much into the argument paul is making. and not listening to what he is saying. Your reading it to fit your theory, and not reading it to see what he really is saying. 


Since you already agreed that there is more than one group in v11-14 you really had nothing new to comment on here. All you did was raise the same things you already raise above. I will simply move on.

Quote
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

3) You have ignored “who first trusted in Christ”’s context (the phrase’s context) to the first century Church. The listeners cannot be the first who trusted in Christ. This makes no sense. Why would a Christian, in the first century, in Asia Minor, think of themselves as “the first who trusted in Christ”. The ones “who first trusted in Christ” from their perspective was the Jews, Paul and his friends, who shared this good news with them.


I already explained what paul was referring to by saying we. We also received these things because of faith.. you also received these things because you had faith like we did. it gets no clearer than this.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

4)You misplaced what was being predestined. “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”. Who/what is being predestined? We are predestined. “Obtaining an inheritance” is what is being predestined for us. God is predestining us to obtain an inheritance. This is what the passage is saying.


Nothing I stated denies this. You are correct. Obtaining an inheritance is what is being predestined. I will not argue, nor have I argued this fact. Why you think I am I do not know.


Why? Because, you said while “exegeting” v11-14
Quote
Paul answers what it is that is predestined. That WE who have faith, should be adopted as sons, and made Holy And Blameless to the praise of his glory.
This is how you interpreted the predestined in v11 with v12. If the “predestined”, in v11, is connected to obtaining an inheritance, then it is not connected to “we who have faith” (really, who were the first to hope in Christ ) might be to the praise of his glory. You can’t interpret it both ways.


Quote
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

In this passage, God is not predestining a plan for salvation or choosing who will be saved based on some condition that man meets (faith). God is predetermining the very course of history. The object of predestination in the Bible is always man and/or what man will do in the course of history. For example, God predetermined all the events having to do with the Crucification of Christ including the free acts of men, God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestined us for adoption as sons, and God predestined us to obtain an inheritance. God does not predestine his plan.

Predestination is the application of his plan on history.


Yeah. God used the free will of men to do what God predestined them to do. He did not force the men who crucified Christ to do it. They did it of there on free will, and he knew this, and had them in place so they could do it. He also did not force isreal to reject him, In fact he could have still been crucified even if isreal did not reject him, he could have used rome to do this. The fact is. all of Gods predestination do not remove mans free will. He uses mens will to put people in place where they need to be to make sure his work is done. He also does not force men to have faith in him. He gives them the word, the gospel of salvation. and asks them to chose. do we trust Christ. or do we trust self. That is his will and purpose. that All who call on the name of the lord will be saved, That all who hear and believe will be given all he promised, and not only this, he will give them his seal ( the hs) to guarantee they will get what they trusted him to give.

God did predestine his plan. It was his plan before man was even created to do the work which would be required to save his creation from eternal damnation. It was also his plan to offer this salvation to everyone, knowing not everyone would receive his offer (gift) of salvation



God did predestine his plan? Thank you for completely ignoring the very context and use of the word predestine in the Bible. God NEVER predestines a plan. Your mixing up the direct object and indirect object of predestine. God always predestines men to do something. The indirect object of predestine is part of God’s chosen plan that takes place in history. The direct object is always man. Predestine is an active verb were God’s predestination is applied to men and makes things occur in history. God’s predestination is the primary cause of the course of history. It is God’s active power to make history turn out the way he chose it would turn out. Your understanding and use of this word is ERRANT! You have no justification for your use or understanding of this word because your WRONG.

Give one, EVEN ONE, Biblical use of “predestine” were the direct object is God’s plan. It is used 5 times: Acts 4:28, Rom. 8:29, Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:5, and Eph. 1:11, and every use has MAN as the direct object. Man is predetermined to do something in every passage. Plans are never predetermined in the Bible. The word is simply not used in this way in SCRIPTURE. PERIOD!

Quote


When someone gives me a gift. I do not have to recieve it. I can reject it and not take it. God offers his gift to all. It does not mean all will recieve, If God forces people to take it. It is not a gift given freely. it is a thing forced on people.


Really, Did you have to receive your life? Did you have to receive the body and mind you have? You could have been born sever autism so that you would be unable to communicate at all on this cite. Did Joni Eareckson Tada have to receive the gift of being paralyzed? God does do things that are considered gifts that we do not have to receive in order for us to obtain them.

Nice theory, but there are major holes in it.

Quote


Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

5) Eternally-Gratefull, you correctly identified the group connected to the “you”, in v13, but you ignored the fact that this “you” is distinct from the “we” in v11 and 12 because “you” is in the 2nd person and “we” is in the 1st person. “We”, in v11, is all Christians, “we” in v12 is the Apostles, and “you” in v13 is the readers of the letter.


Already explained at least 3 times now. Hopefully now you see how I interpret this.
Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am

6) The phrase “also trusted” is including the readers, “you” with the group who first trusted, “we” v12.


Just like the we in verse 11 is including paul and those with him with the group he is writing to.

Quote From : DoctrinesofGraceBapt April 30, 2010, 8:01 am


7) v11-14 does not mention God’s choice. Predestination is not the same thing as choice.


Your right. Just like Paul in vs 12 showed how he and those with him received their inheritance (faith) he shows in verse 13 - 14 how they received their also. God did not use choice or predestined, because he did not predestine them to have faith. He predestined them based on their faith  Why would paul explain how he received his inheritance, and how they received their's if it had no meaning.


God Bless.


I have some question for you.

1. Why don’t you interact with the grammatical flow of v3-14? Why do you see v13-14 as explaining the conditions to become predestined in v11, when v11-12 are a distinct, independent sub-clause from v13-14? v11-12 and v13-14 are different clauses. Explain why one must ignore this grammatical structure and use v13-14 to define how people are predestined.

2. Why do you interpret “predestined” direct object to be God’s plan? The grammatical use of “predestined” in the Bible always has man as the direct object. God’s plan is sometimes the indirect object. Why should I believe or even consider this understanding of “predestined” when it does not match the grammatical use of “predestined” in the Bible?

3. Why do you say God’s predestination and choice in v4-5 is according to our choice to trust in Christ when it say it is according to the good pleasure of his will?

4. Why are you so against God being Sovereign as to control the very course of history? In other words, why do you spout off endless comments about man being free, men are saved by faith, and God choice being based on our choice whenever I raise the Fact that God determines the very course of history?

5. Why does your perspective of God make God seem like an impotent monarch who does nothing to upset his subjects? Why must God be a gentleman to those who are openly rebelling against him in sin? Why must God give wicked, evil, vile men, who hate God and want nothing to do with him the opportunity to be saved? What obliges God to be like this?



God Bless.
IP: --   

« Previous    Next »

Threaded Mode | Tell a friend | Print  

Page 3 of 3<<<123All


Jump To :


Users viewing this topic
1 guests, 0 users.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is September 6, 2010, 6:14 pm.

  Powered By AEF 1.0.8 © 2007-2008 Electron Inc.Queries: 11  |  Page Created In:0.294

Caughtup Ministries