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 Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace (58 Replies, Read 1109 times)
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 3:13 am
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption 		Calvary Chapel strives to "strik[e] a balance between extremes" when it comes to controversial theological issues such as Calvinism's and Arminianism's conflicting views on salvation. Calvary Chapels hold the following views on the five points of Calvinism:
  1. On the first point, Calvary Chapel agrees with Calvinism's view of all men as "sinners" but holds that — with God's grace — salvation becomes possible.
  2. On point number two, Calvinists believe that man's election to salvation lies completely in the choice of God, while Arminians believe that man's free will plays a role as well. Calvary Chapel has taken a middle ground approach by saying that "God clearly does choose, but man must also accept God's invitation to salvation."
  3. On point number three, Calvary strongly sides with Arminianism, which contends that Jesus died "for the whole world"; this contrasts with the Calvinist view that Jesus' death was intended and therefore efficient only for those who would believe. The Calvary Chapel view is that the "atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ was clearly sufficient to save the entire human race".
  4. Point four has to do with man's ability to resist God. Calvary sides with Arminianism on this point and believes that "God's grace can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will". Calvinists believe in irresistible grace.
  5. On the final point, Calvary Chapels believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers) but express deep concern about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among those who call themselves Christians.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 11:19 am | Post: 1
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I have taught this "Calvary Chapel Distinctives" class many times.

They Agree with Arminianism on points 1-4.
They disagree with the MAJORITY of the Arminians on point 5.

Therefore they fall perfectly in line with the Arminians that hold the minority view of point 5.

Calvary Chapel is distinctively Arminian.

And THIS my friend is an argument from authority. I was a leader it the CC movement.

1. BUT with God's GRACE - salvation become POSSIBLE. That is a CLEAR Arminian statement. Notice the grammar also... BUT... that is a CONTRASTIVE word. Notice they don't have the Arminian view up there... that because the view stated after the contrastive IS the Arminian View

2. Notice "Arminians believe FREE WILL plays a role in it as well, then they make a false statement (and this is what confuses people, they say that "they take a middle ground which makes you think that it is DIFFERING from the Arminian view, but does it?), then they plainly REWORD the Arminian view! "man must ALSO play a role to accept (or reject).... This is EXACTLY what was just pointed out by the Arminian position! .... hilarious

3. Here they just come out and plainly state they side with Arminians.... truth and honestly at last!

4.Here they are honest again.

5. This point is held by ALL Calvinists AND a minority of Arminians (that is because they are inconsistent with their tenants). A logically and philosophically consistent Arminian would reject perseverance because it forces mans will to NOT be able to choose to NOT believe again. THEREFORE, Calvary STILL sides with the inconsistent (and therefore they are the minority of the group) Arminians.

SO...
Calvary basically is saying We disagree with Calvinists with 4 of the Five points and AGREE PERFECTLY with 4.5 of the points of Arminians... ... But then make a blatantly false statement that they are in the "middle". It is hilarious.

The point of contention also shows that there can be NO MIDDLE GROUND. The contention has been historically and always will be monergism vs. synergism.  There is no In between.

Either God does EVERYTHING  - One energy (monergism) IN salvation OR
Man has to COOPERATE - TWO energies (synergism) which by definition means man has to Cooperate with God IN ORDER for His plan to be finished. (Look at point two. This is the epitome of synergism)  Brian Broderson even the other day said on KWAVE "The determining factor in salvation IS MAN'S Choice in Free Will"  LOL ....







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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 5:52 pm | Post: 2
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 1, 2010, 11:19 am

Either God does EVERYTHING  - One energy (monergism) IN salvation OR
Man has to COOPERATE - TWO energies (synergism) which by definition means man has to Cooperate with God IN ORDER for His plan to be finished. (Look at point two. This is the epitome of synergism)  Brian Broderson even the other day said on KWAVE "The determining factor in salvation IS MAN'S Choice in Free Will"  LOL ....


I am confused.. Are you saying we dont need to believe because God does everything ? We dont need to persevere or pray or...


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 7:05 pm | Post: 3
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Stay to the topic on this one DS.

Calvary Chapel is, by their own weak soteriological statements, Arminian. The "middle ground" is just a myth.

Quote

I am confused.. Are you saying we dont need to believe because God
does everything ? We dont need to persevere or pray or...



Our OUTWARD act of faith is an EFFECT of an INWARD act of regeneration.
It is the tangible/material evidence of the intangible/spiritual act.

We are however Generated by the Spirit. Our faith is GIVEN to US. Justification and Sanctification is by the Grace of God moving in us to perform those acts.

Yes, it is all by God. But we manifest them.
FROM Him and THROUGH Him and TO Him are ALL THINGS.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (ESV)
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.








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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 7:28 pm | Post: 4
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote

Our OUTWARD act of faith is an EFFECT of an INWARD act of regeneration.

It is the tangible/material evidence of the intangible/spiritual act.


I thought the logical order was

“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. ” (Acts 16:30–31, KJV)
Faith then the inward act.



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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 8:02 pm | Post: 5
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Quote
“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be
saved, and thy house. ” (Acts 16:30–31, KJV)


This is Narrative. Not explicit doctrinal teaching but rather descriptive speech. It is equivocal not univocal. Acts 16 is only showing the outward call. The intention of the author is not to give a doctrinal prescription but merely a simple Narrative. The Apostles knew that the Gospel produced by the power of the Spirit is what saves. Those who are regenerated don't need to know a whole doctrinal affirmation in order to have what is prescribed by the statement to come to pass.

That again is like my "turn the car on" question. If asked you how to start the car, you don't give them a hour long dissertation of the Ford engineering and manufacturing plant. THOUGH what is done there is the CAUSE for the ABILITY of the car starting, you would not explain that. You would simply say "Turn the key in the ignition".



No. The faith EXPRESSED or as I said "manifested" is the audible declaration. This is the EFFECT.
The CAUSE is regeneration. This is done spiritually.

That is why the CALL is Repent and Believe. These are the effects, the things we can tangibly SEE.


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 9:01 pm | Post: 6
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 1, 2010, 8:02 pm
Quote
“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be
saved, and thy house. ” (Acts 16:30–31, KJV)


This is Narrative. Not explicit doctrinal teaching but rather descriptive speech. It is equivocal not univocal. Acts 16 is only showing the outward call. The intention of the author is not to give a doctrinal prescription but merely a simple Narrative. The Apostles knew that the Gospel produced by the power of the Spirit is what saves. Those who are regenerated don't need to know a whole doctrinal affirmation in order to have what is prescribed by the statement to come to pass.



It is a narrative of a prescriptive point. The Jailer asked, Paul gave the prescription. It cannot be any simpler then that.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 12:47 pm | Post: 7
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That's right. "Turn the Key to start the car".....

However, there is much that needed to be done IN ORDER to make the turning of the key to BE ABLE to start the car.


So keeping things on topic.

Calvary Chapel IS Arminian.



Edited by ronathanedwards : March 2, 2010, 12:49 pm

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 8:31 pm | Post: 8
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 2, 2010, 12:47 pm
That's right. "Turn the Key to start the car".....However, there is much that needed to be done IN ORDER to make the turning of the key to BE ABLE to start the car.
So keeping things on topic.
Calvary Chapel IS Arminian.


So you agree it is a prescriptive text...

Also you say moderate calvinist are arminians also so what do you want me to say?


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 3, 2010, 1:21 pm | Post: 9
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It is an imperative. It is a command. A command is something that one "ought" to do. It DOES NOT IMPLY anything else. It does not imply that the one commanded has the ABILITY to follow the command. That would be an implication.

Notice the question also. It doesn't say "What CAN I do to be saved, but what MUST I do".

The one who DOES Repent and Believe IS saved. That is a simple statement that everyone believes. That isn't the point that is being argued. It is over the underlying spiritual enabling  that has to take place IN ORDER for the command to be followed.

Again this is a COMMAND. What does it say about those who are in the FLESH?
They CAN NOT submit to God's Laws (commands).


And yes, by definition, it would nice if you would just be honest about yourselves and admit that the Calvary Chapel theology is Arminian. Consequently by your affirmation of it are an Arminian.




-----------------------
Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 3, 2010, 3:29 pm | Post: 10
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 3, 2010, 1:21 pm
It is an imperative. It is a command. A command is something that one "ought" to do. It DOES NOT IMPLY anything else. It does not imply that the one commanded has the ABILITY to follow the command. That would be an implication.

Notice the question also. It doesn't say "What CAN I do to be saved, but what MUST I do".

The one who DOES Repent and Believe IS saved. That is a simple statement that everyone believes. That isn't the point that is being argued. It is over the underlying spiritual enabling  that has to take place IN ORDER for the command to be followed.

Again this is a COMMAND. What does it say about those who are in the FLESH?
They CAN NOT submit to God's Laws (commands).


And yes, by definition, it would nice if you would just be honest about yourselves and admit that the Calvary Chapel theology is Arminian. Consequently by your affirmation of it are an Arminian.




Good thing people dont need to submit themselves to the law to be saved.. None would be saved..  It is imperative you are correct. However that does not change the prescription. It still shows faith precedes salvation. Basically the only way you can say that regeneration precedes faith is by saying a person does not receive salvation (as this text points to) at the point of regeneration. Which then leads you to other problems..

Calvary Chapel Bible College systematic theology class uses Henry Thiessen for their systematic theology. He has always been labeled as a moderate calvinist. However, most calvinist call moderate calvinists arminians so I dont know what to say..


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 3, 2010, 3:34 pm | Post: 11
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Quote
Calvary Chapel Bible College systematic theology class uses Henry
Thiessen for their systematic theology. He has always been labeled as a
moderate calvinist. However, most calvinist call moderate calvinists
arminians so I dont know what to say..


Sure you know what to say... you're an Arminian. You just don't want to admit it.


-----------------------
Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 3, 2010, 3:44 pm | Post: 12
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Posts: 485
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 3, 2010, 3:34 pm
Quote
Calvary Chapel Bible College systematic theology class uses Henry
Thiessen for their systematic theology. He has always been labeled as a
moderate calvinist. However, most calvinist call moderate calvinists
arminians so I dont know what to say..


Sure you know what to say... you're an Arminian. You just don't want to admit it.


I dont believe you can loose your salvation so I am not an Arminian.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 8:32 am | Post: 13
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Like I said  on commenting on the "distinctives" , there are MANY Arminians that don't believe that you can lose your salvation either.

Therefore you line up EXACTLY with them in EVERY POINT. You HAVE to admit that.


Although that is VERY inconsistent with the LOGIC with not only the Arminian view (which is why they hold to losing salvation 'because it takes away the free will of the person that is believing'), but conversely this is why in order to be systematically consistent, if you HOLD to perseverance of the faith, you would also agree with the other 4 points of Calvinism.

The Arminians were at least systematically logical and philosophically consistent.

Those Arminians (like you) who hold to perseverance are inconsistent with your theology AND Philosophy.

Likewise, anyone who holds to all four points of Calvinism but not perseverance (of which I know NONE whatsoever) would likewise be inconsistent theologically and Philosophically. 



-----------------------
Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 5, 2010, 6:55 pm | Post: 14
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 4, 2010, 8:32 am
Like I said  on commenting on the "distinctives" , there are MANY Arminians that don't believe that you can lose your salvation either.

Therefore you line up EXACTLY with them in EVERY POINT. You HAVE to admit that.


Although that is VERY inconsistent with the LOGIC with not only the Arminian view (which is why they hold to losing salvation 'because it takes away the free will of the person that is believing'), but conversely this is why in order to be systematically consistent, if you HOLD to perseverance of the faith, you would also agree with the other 4 points of Calvinism.

The Arminians were at least systematically logical and philosophically consistent.

Those Arminians (like you) who hold to perseverance are inconsistent with your theology AND Philosophy.

Likewise, anyone who holds to all four points of Calvinism but not perseverance (of which I know NONE whatsoever) would likewise be inconsistent theologically and Philosophically. 



No I do not hold to arminianism on every point. Most arminians hold to Molinism. I do not. That is a big difference between moderate calvinism and arminianism.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
IP: --   

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