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What is the right Church structure
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 12, 2010, 7:55 am | Post: 30
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I dont think the baptists have it right either. The people can horn in pastors that tickle their ears. They can kick out pastors that preach the word.


Yet this is the Biblical way. The church chose men who were "apt" to teach. And you are presupposing the church is ignorant and wanting to listen to false teaching (since the tickling ears text is concerning that issue).

The church choosing EVERYTHING is the Holy Spirit working through the Church as a whole to make decisions, this is trusting in God's sovereignty. The elders are chosen by the body. This is N.T. church governement.



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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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What is the right Church structure
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 16, 2010, 8:32 pm | Post: 31
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote

Yet this is the Biblical way. The church chose men who were "apt" to teach. And you are presupposing the church is ignorant and wanting to listen to false teaching (since the tickling ears text is concerning that issue).

The church choosing EVERYTHING is the Holy Spirit working through the Church as a whole to make decisions, this is trusting in God's sovereignty. The elders are chosen by the body. This is N.T. church governement.


The biblical way ? Wow I have not ever see the scriptures lay out the biblical way of Church government. If it did there would not be so many different ways of doing it. The scriptures speak about rules for elders and deacons. The bible does not say a church must be set up a certain way.

Infact if you wanted to be really biblical you could give all you own to the Church just like the early church did it.  :D


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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What is the right Church structure
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 17, 2010, 10:02 am | Post: 32
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ummm  Biblical in the sense that there are Elders and deacons. There is no "head pastor" that determines or leads the church. There are only Elders and deacons.
The teacher/s is one of the elders and holds no more sway than any other elder.





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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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What is the right Church structure
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 17, 2010, 4:02 pm | Post: 33
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 17, 2010, 10:02 am
ummm  Biblical in the sense that there are Elders and deacons. There is no "head pastor" that determines or leads the church. There are only Elders and deacons.
The teacher/s is one of the elders and holds no more sway than any other elder.


I assume you have read first timothy. It was written to Timothy to give instruction to elders and deacons and for him to keep them accountable seeing as he was the "head pastor". It was not written to the elders and deacons to keep timothy accountable. Paul told timothy that if the elders and deacons did not meet the certain qualification the they were basically disqualified. Timothy was over the elders and deacons.


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What is the right Church structure
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 18, 2010, 1:26 pm | Post: 34
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It does not say he was a "head pastor". The "church" means the assembled of the elect. You are anachronistically putting Timothy in place of what you think was a "church". The church was ALL the believers who already had MANY home "churches" in Ephesus. These home churches had elders who preached/taught. Timothies role was to "oversee" the church as a whole. Given the qualifications, it was his "role" to set up elders in "his" church, rather it was to make sure the elders in the churches fit those qualifications. The church was in its infant stage, it needed proper organization. There were many who were teaching not according to  sound doctrine. Timothies role again was to correct that. The roles and actions of those in Ephesus were also in great need of correction. This again Timothy was charged in correcting.

However, he was not sent to be a "head pastor" on ONE "church" (as you understand it i.e. one church where everyone comes to meet and has Timothy to lead them".

Timothy was an overseer (bishop if you like). As the churches grew and doctrine was in place, the individual churches were "set" with the "doctrines" of Timothies Letter from Paul (most likely why the Letter was so popular, because it was copied and handed down) where the elders in each church then were as they grew self reliant, yet still managed by authority of the "council of elders" and Apostles. As the apostles died, the "bishops" (not Roman Catholic, that would also be an anachronism) led the churches.

So Timothy fails for your comparison with Calvary Chapel. Calvary sends out a man, to a place that has nothing, and HE starts a church and HE picks the leadership. Timothy was sent to churches that already had leadership and "preachers" (most likely more than one in a church and maybe even many in a church, and Timothy (through PAUL'S instruction) made sure they wee qualified (those who already were most likely chosen by the individual churches). The text and history are silent on whether the churches voted for the leaders to fill in the places of the leaders who were not qualified, but it is assumed.

Also a HEAVY emphasis was on "doctrine" and knowing the "words" (implying proper grammar and syntactical understandings that were handed down. This would heavily emphasize knowledge of the text and training in doctrine (A "seminary" in it's infancy). Many Calvary Chapel leaders couldn't even tell the difference between a Xi and an Zeta let alone know the Greek.... it's sad.

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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What is the right Church structure
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 18, 2010, 5:25 pm | Post: 35
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
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It does not say he was a "head pastor"


Math lesson: 1 (timothy was head of the Church) + 1 (Timothy also taught in the church) = 2 timothy was head teacher at the church.

“ Command and teach these things. Let no one look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in your speech, conduct, love, faithfulness, and purity. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the spiritual gift you have, given to you and confirmed by prophetic words when the elders laid hands on you. Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that everyone will see your progress. Be conscientious about how you live and what you teach. Persevere in this, because by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.” (1 Timothy 4:11–16, NET)







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What is the right Church structure
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 19, 2010, 3:14 pm | Post: 36
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desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. 1 Ti 1:7.

First of all, would pretty much knock out a major majority of people who have not been to seminary.

when the council of elders laid their hands on you.
1 Ti 4:14.  This was done FOR eldership.

Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
1 Ti 5:17.

There were many churches in Ephesus (house churches) They all had elders. These elders taught and preached. Timothy taught and preached also. He was given the qualifications (the letter which he most likely TAUGHT to the elders) for them to be accountable to each other. Nowhere in the letter does it say that Timothy was the one (or ONLY one) that held them accountable.

If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness....
. 1 Ti 6:3.

Allot of  "teaching" going on there besides Timothy! (weather good OR bad) notice Paul also says "sound WORDS". Grammar is important. I bet Timothy didn't misconstrue a perfect tense verb! And yes good ol' doctrine was heavily emphasized also. They kicked out the bad ones with councils. Like Carthage, Orange, Ephesus, Dordt.... what did all of these councils have in common?

There isn't ONE verse to Timothy saying he was solely responsible for the accountability of the elders.

Timothy brought organization and qualifications TO Ephesus, how did He do that? By teaching and preaching, and the OTHER elders did the same from what they heard from Timothy.

Sorry, no head pastor.





Edited by ronathanedwards : March 19, 2010, 3:16 pm

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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What is the right Church structure
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 19, 2010, 3:32 pm | Post: 37
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption 		;-D  Ok.. Was that suppose to refute the scripture I provided ? The math was simple.. He was set in Ephesus to head up the church. Sure others taught as well as timothy. That however does not change anything. Timothy was set there to head up the church by Paul, and to teach. Sounds like a Calvary Chapel pastor to me. So much for you doing it the "biblical way". If you want to be biblical you might start your own Calvary Chapel. You just could not teach your calvinism  :P


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What is the right Church structure
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 20, 2010, 10:36 pm | Post: 38
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You ignored everything that I said. Typical Calvary Chapelitis.

Timothy didn't go "start" a church. There were MANY churches there.Many self reliant elders. Many teachers in the churches. You don't understand that it wasn't a "church" in the singular, it was the Church as a whole, but Church meant church as the whole group, not the individual "churches" that make up the "church of Ephesus. If Paul sent Timothy to the "church at Los Angeles would that mean there is only one place in L.A. that Timothy would go to teach and inform the "elders"?  Nope, there would be hundreds of people He would have to meet and give qualifications to for the elders to examine to see if they were all qualified.  He didn't go there and hang a "Dove" on the corner building and start preaching and start His own church. You've got your head in the sand.

I did the CC thing.... Thank God for his grace he lead me out of that mess. Talk about a bunch of people that think they are a bunch of Big fish in a small pond, when they are actually a tad pole in the Atlantic. Barely anybody knows them in the Academic World. And they certainly don't produce anybody academically noteworthy.

No I wouldn't be able to  preach there, because Arminians don't allow Calvinists to preach, liberalism suppresses truth, where conservatism allows an open exchange of ideas. Funny how James White is practically begging for a debate... Yet no one will take him up on it..... He plays Arminian stuff all the time on his radio show... and other Calvinist radio shows do the same... yet you'll never hear KWAVE or the CC satellite network shows play and critic any Calvinists ... it's hilarious.

Calvary Chapel is the exact opposite of what proper church government should be. It is against church history, unless you consider the Roman Catholic Church. Then you have a prime example of Calvary Chapel... basically the same theology also!
Pope Chuck Smith. ... lol .. Who's going to be His "successor"? Vicar Christus Brian Broderson?

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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