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 The origin of sin in heaven (17 Replies, Read 2064 times)
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # February 19, 2010, 7:17 pm
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption 		According to Scripture, the origin of sin is found in free will.9 God gave us the power of choice, which in itself is a good thing. Tragically, human beings misuse their God-given freedom.

The Origin of Sin in Heaven by Angels
Actually, evil originated in heaven before it did on earth. Evil was born in the breast of an archangel in the presence of God. This is a tremendous mystery, but it is, nonetheless, the essence of Christian teaching on the source of evil.

Lucifer’s Sin
The traditional name given to this archangel is taken from Isaiah 14:12:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! … For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isa. 14:12–14 KJV)

While most contemporary biblical scholars believe that this passage, in context, refers to “the king of Babylon” (v. 4), the pride and fall of this man is an emulation of the choices of the first archangel, who rebelled against God by a similar but primeval hubris. Paul exhorted, “[An overseer] must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil” (1 Tim. 3:6).

Other Angels Also Rebelled
According to Revelation, other angels followed suit. A third of them rebelled with Lucifer and became demons (as he had become the devil). John wrote:
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.… The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (Rev. 12:3–9)

Clearly, then, sin was in the universe before it was in the world; there was sin in heaven before there was sin on earth. This is made evident by the presence of the tempter (Satan) in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3:1ff.).

Norman L. Geisler, Systematic Theology, Volume Three: Sin, Salvation (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 2004), 82–83.



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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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The origin of sin in heaven
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 12:06 pm | Post: 1
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This might explain (maybe) the WHO and WHY, but I find it interesting that Norm doesn't TOUCH the MAIN problem... HOW was pride (evil) conceived,

Also there is nothing about God's interaction or purpose or Will involved involved at all. Which might be the actual answer to the most important question, How it was conceived and Why was it conceived.


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The origin of sin in heaven
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 1, 2010, 5:40 pm | Post: 2
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 1, 2010, 12:06 pm
This might explain (maybe) the WHO and WHY, but I find it interesting that Norm doesn't TOUCH the MAIN problem... HOW was pride (evil) conceived,

Also there is nothing about God's interaction or purpose or Will involved involved at all. Which might be the actual answer to the most important question, How it was conceived and Why was it conceived.


There are different types of causes. Here we are talking about the instrumental cause.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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The origin of sin in heaven
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 1:36 pm | Post: 3
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Here we are talking about the instrumental cause.


   
   


So Satan was the "instrumental" cause?


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The origin of sin in heaven
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 2, 2010, 8:51 pm | Post: 4
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
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So Satan was the "instrumental" cause?


Yes, just like Adam was the instrumental cause on earth.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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The origin of sin in heaven
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 4, 2010, 8:19 am | Post: 5
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What does "instrument" imply?


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The origin of sin in heaven
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 5, 2010, 7:10 pm | Post: 6
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 4, 2010, 8:19 am
What does "instrument" imply?


(1) efficient cause—that by which something comes to be;
(2) final cause—that for which something comes to be;
(3) formal cause—that of which something comes to be;
(4) material cause—that out of which something comes to be;
(5) exemplar cause—that after which something comes to be;
(6) instrumental cause—that through which something comes to be.




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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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The origin of sin in heaven
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 6, 2010, 8:46 pm | Post: 7
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Answer the question that I ask, and not the one you think I am asking please.

I didn't ask you "What does the instrumental 'clause' MEAN".

I asked you what does the word "instrument" mean? What does it imply?


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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The origin of sin in heaven
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 6, 2010, 10:53 pm | Post: 8
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote From : ronathanedwards March 6, 2010, 8:46 pm
Answer the question that I ask, and not the one you think I am asking please.

I didn't ask you "What does the instrumental 'clause' MEAN".

I asked you what does the word "instrument" mean? What does it imply?


I provided you with information related to what was meant by my post. I would think you question relates to the way the word was used in the post. The implied meaning was not being implied therefore whatever point you are trying to make would be irrelevant to the original post.
To answer directly, instrument has many implied meanings depending on the context, and if the person is really trying to imply something. Taking an implied meaning when the person is not implying anything beyond what was stated is not proper hermeneutics. Soo it depends on the context, and intent. If I dont understand either of those, thereby not getting a context to work from I cannot really say.


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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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The origin of sin in heaven
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 9, 2010, 7:02 pm | Post: 9
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Taking an implied meaning when the person is not implying anything beyond what was stated is not proper hermeneutics.


You might want to take that to heart when you read passages that say "repent and believe" and turn it into "everyone has the "ABILITY" to repent and believe.

The word "instrument" grammatically is defined as "the object in which the SUBJECT uses to get the desired effect.

I "by" (flag word indicating instrumental clause) my HAMMER nailed the picture to the wall.

The INSTRUMENT is the HAMMER.

The implied MEANING by the EXPLICIT use of the definition "instrument" is that:

Satan is the INSTRUMENTAL cause, WHICH implies, if He was the INSTRUMENT then that implies a SUBJECT that USED the instrument for his purpose.

So, who would that be?

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The origin of sin in heaven
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 9, 2010, 7:11 pm | Post: 10
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
You might want to take that to heart when you read passages that say
"repent and believe" and turn it into "everyone has the "ABILITY" to
repent and believe.


God is not illogical demanding that which is illogical. God does not command all to believe if all cannot believe.

Quote
The word "instrument" grammatically is defined as "the object in which the SUBJECT uses to get the desired effect


The post was not implying anything. What you are saying is called determinism which is hyper calvinism. Calvinist's hold to compatibilism not determinism. So are you a hyper calvinist ?




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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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The origin of sin in heaven
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 9, 2010, 7:24 pm | Post: 11
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God is not illogical demanding that which is illogical. God does not command all to believe if all cannot believe


Thank you for proving my point. You are implying that into the verse. It speaks nothing of ability whatsoever. It's a simple imperative.

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The post was not implying anything. What you are saying is called determinism which is hyper calvinism. Calvinist's hold to compatibilism not determinism. So are you a hyper calvinist ?


The intentions of the post might not have been implying that. I am not stating such a thing.

However, I am just chuckling that Norm plays on the laziness of people and gets away with it. He leaves "evil" at the footstep of Satan and He hopes you don't regress any further and ask anymore questions.

The problem is Satan WAS an instrument of God. He in His determinate free will intented for Satan to do what he did. This determinate INITIAL Cause (which Norm so slily doesn't mention) was by God and this intention was good and Holy. Satans intention within that act was evil.

THIS is combatablism. NOT Determinism or fatalism.

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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
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The origin of sin in heaven
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 9, 2010, 7:31 pm | Post: 12
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote
Thank you for proving my point. You are implying that into the verse.
It speaks nothing of ability whatsoever. It's a simple imperative.


What verse ?

Quote
The intentions of the post might not have been implying that. I am not stating such a thing.



However, I am just chuckling that Norm plays on the laziness of
people and gets away with it. He leaves "evil" at the footstep of Satan
and He hopes you don't regress any further and ask anymore questions.



The problem is Satan WAS an instrument of God. He in His
determinate free will intented for Satan to do what he did. This
determinate INITIAL Cause (which Norm so slily doesn't mention) was by
God and this intention was good and Holy. Satans intention within that
act was evil.


THIS is combatablism. NOT Determinism or fatalism.
       


Norm say's it in other spots. His systematic theology is not four volumes of the same statements. Each section has its own purpose. There are many types of causes in that section he was naming one.






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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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The origin of sin in heaven
ronathanedwards
Posted on # March 9, 2010, 7:45 pm | Post: 13
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Norm say's it in other spots


Says what in other spots? That God decreed that Satan sin?



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Truth invites scrutiny, only error fears close examination. ~ Atruro Azurdia
IP: --   

The origin of sin in heaven
Divinesoteriology
Posted on # March 9, 2010, 8:17 pm | Post: 14
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Ordo Solutis) Drawing, Faith, Union with Christ which entails Justification, Regeneration, Adoption
Quote


Says what in other spots? That God decreed that Satan sin?




Focusing on God as Actor rather than on His actions reveals two of His distinctly different functions in relation to His creation. In one role He is the Originator of it, and in the other He is the chief Operator of it. He is both the Source and the Sustainer of the universe; He is not only Creator but also the Conserver of all that is; God is at once Producer and Provider of all living things. These roles depict His direct involvement in His world at all times, from beginning to end.

God also has some indirect roles in creation. While He is the primary Cause of all things, He also works through secondary causes. What we commonly refer to as the processes of nature are in reality God’s indirect work through natural causes. In this capacity, God is the remote Cause, while natural forces are the proximate causes of events; that is, God is the ultimate Cause, but nature is the immediate cause of most happenings. God is the original Commander, but He works through a chain of command when acting through natural laws. T


Geisler, N. L. (2003). Systematic theology, volume two: God, creation (506). Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers.



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Faith is not knowing what the future holds, but knowing who holds the future.
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