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But you are arguing that the passage does NOT deal with initial
justification, but some heretofore unexplained future justification,
probably after these Romans die and go to Heaven. OK, but you are
arguing from silence since nowhere else in the Epistle to the Romans
does Paul teach about some future justification that happens once we
die.

But it is in the future tense, and the letter was written to a specific people. You are taking an application based hermeneutics (applying it to someone other the the original receptors). I guess it would come down to your perspective of hermeneutics? Is there only one true meaning / interpretation of the text, but many applications. Or is all interpretations valid, and considered the true interpretation? Frankly if it is the prior your argument is over, if it is the latter, then I have some questions about the infallibility of the Catholic church.

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So, when he says in 5:19, "so also by the obedience of one, many shall
be made just," he does not mean that his audience will be made just
ONLY in the future. To me, it is clear that Paul is talking about all
of history: in the past, from the time of Adam, many were made sinners
by the fact that they were biologically born sons of Adam. But in the
future, many will be made just by Christ. He uses future tense since
the vast majority of Christians will be justified in the future (from
when Paul was writing).

In this instance Paul is talking about a future justification. To conclude that a future justification is the only justification that takes place is an incorrect conclusion. It does not derive from any of the premises. It seems clear to me that Paul is paralleling, the beginning with Adam and the end with Christ. As I showed you before, Paul uses the future tense when talking about judgment. Are you going to tell me that is the immediate future also? Or, is that also speaking in an eschatological reference? On what basis would you say one concerns itself with eschatology, and the other does not? I am not saying that it is not possible the text could be speaking about an immediate future. Verse 21 & 22 makes it clear that he is speaking about end times. Paul never talks about eternal life in the present he always uses it in end times form.

Let me give you the examples of Future tenses in the book of Romans

“And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things and dost the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? ” (Romans 2:3, D-R)

When does the judgement of God occur? This is found in the future tense.

“Who will render to every man according to his works. ” (Romans 2:6, D-R)

When does He render to each man according to their works ? This is also found in the future tense.

“For whosoever have sinned without the law shall perish without the law: and whosoever have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. ” (Romans 2:12, D-R)

When does perishing and Judging occur ? This is also found in the future tense

“For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified. ” (Romans 2:13, D-R)

As was seen the verse 12 Paul has an eschatological theme. He then continues this in verse 13. Justified is in the future tense

“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. ” (Romans 2:16, D-R)

Judged again in the future tense... The list continues, but I will stop here. It is clear from the context of Romans 5:19 that he has eschatology in mind. Again look at the paralells.

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To that point, here is an example of this error that you make: "From the fall we were condemned accounted unrighteous. In Christ, it is reversed, we are accounted righteous."
Can't you see the error? We were not "accounted unrighteous" as you
say from the Fall. No! We WERE ACTUALLY unrighteous! But you are
right: there is a reversal: if we were actually unrigheous at the Fall,
in Christ, we are actually righteous.

There is not error.. We were condemned accounted unrighteous. We are actually unrighteous also, but that was not the point being made. Did I say we were ONLY accounted unrighteous because of the fall? No I did not, but you jumped to that conclusion, even though the word ONLY was not in the premises. There are many things that happened in the fall that are reversed.
I look forward to your responses to those scriptures after we move from Romans 5:19
]]> Sat, 04 Sep 2010 21:35:46 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1762 <![CDATA[δικαιόω dikaioō justify, pronounce righteous]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1761

Quote From : deliveringit September 1, 2010, 3:16 pm

And so, Rom 5:19 directly contradicts Protestant notions of forensic justification and proves the Catholic teaching.

Hi, Been along time since I have responded in here, been busy.. Hope to spend more time here and this seems like a good place to start..

I must disagree here. How can Rom 19 contradict the view of forensic justification? (Not I will not call it protestant as there are many protestant denominations that also believe in the catholic version of justification. It is not a catholic vs protestant thing, just a difference of opinion in doctrines. I do not think the "us vs them" type of discussing doctrine will help us or anyone else. I hope you agree ) Lets look further at what you are saying.

Quote From : deliveringit September 1, 2010, 3:16 pm

Also, the exact same word root "to constitute" is used in vs. 19 referring to sin: "many were made sinners/peccatores constituti sunt multi." So, what are you saying? That "constituti sunt" means "were declared sinners?" But you must admit that we are not merely "declared" sinners, but that we are actually sinners. And Paul is teaching that we were actually made/constituted that way since we sprang from Adam. There's no "declaration" about it! Unless you deny original sin (and Paul's clear teaching here in Rom 5:19), then you must admit that we are sinners before we even commit an actual sin ourselves. This is because we have original sin and are constituted that way. And, we are sinners before God ever declares us to be sinners.

we were declared sinners before we even sinned. We were born sinners. Was it because we sinned? or was it because God declared us sinners through the imputation of Adam's original sin? Since we were declared a sinner before actually sinning. we also suffered the same condemnation passed down from Adam. We were declared spiritually dead.

Who is the Judge? God. What is the judgment of sin which has eternal consequences? Spiritual death (there are other consequences of sin, such as sickness, pain, suffering, and many other things up to and including physical death, none of which, however can make us right with God, and all of which everyone will suffer whether he is spiritually dead or spiritually alive, so they have no bearing on our conversation.)

Since it is God who passes judgment on us the day we are born, and the reason we are born condemned is Adam's original sin. God must have declared us guilty of sin, or sinners, even before we committed our first sin.

Looking at this we can go further in the passage;

Just as we were made sinners before we even sinned. We were made, or declared right with God before we actually become right with God.. which will not happen until after we die.

One can not be Born again, or made alive in Christ until one is declared innocent of the very thing which makes us spiritually dead. That is that sin must be removed, since it is sin which condemns us to death (spiritual), sin must be removed before we can be given life. there is no way around this.

"many were made sinners before they sinned because of adam, many will be made righteous before they actually are righteous because of Christ. That is why eternal life is called a gift. because no one can deserve it, for ALL have sinned and fall short.

Quote From : deliveringit September 1, 2010, 3:16 pm

"The English word "made" is a past tense word, notice our word we are looking at is in the future tense." And that is why the Vulgate/DouayRheims uses the future tense: "justi constituentur multi" / "many shall be made just." So, I'm not sure of your point there.

Not to be picky but you just contradicted yourself here. If "made" is always a "past tense word" then "Many shall be made just" must be translated many shall be or will be made (past tense) just..

Quote From : deliveringit September 1, 2010, 3:16 pm

I did answer your question regarding the future tense. But let me say it a different way: If you were talking about some person's initial justification that will happen in the future (since right now that person has not believed in Christ yet), couldn't you say "so and so WAS made/constituted a sinner due to Adam, but he WILL BE justified by faith when he believes on Christ?" Just because you use future tense does not mean you can't be talking about his initial justification. In fact, in this (hypothetical) case, you ARE talking about his initial justification!

Also, Paul does not say "For as by the disobedience of one man, a person is made a sinner: so also by the obedience of one, that same person, if he believes, will be declared just initially, and then later, made/constituted just (at the last judgment)." That, seems to me, is what it would have to say to match what you think it now says. But it doesn't say that.

Why would this have to be? Paul knew he was just. He also had told the people who already believed that they were just. In fact in rom 5:1 he said they had been (past tense) justified. in vs 9, he says that not only have we been Justified (past tense) by his blood, but the result of this justification is that we will be saved ( future tense) by the wrath of God because of this justification. In vs 19 he did not have to use present or past tense, the people who had it knew they had it. He was speaking of the people, including us, who would join them in the same justification and hope they had already experienced. which would be given to us the same way they received itl. through the blood of Christ.

Quote From : deliveringit September 1, 2010, 3:16 pm

So, Rom 5:19 teaches that all believers are made just by the obedience of Christ. This is Catholic teaching and directly contradicts Protestant teaching. That is why you should become Catholic: it's Biblical. ;)

And here is were we separate and disagree. I am called a protestant by you. Yet I believe wholly and completely I am made just only by the obedience of Christ. My good works, my good deeds, or my sufferings have no bearing on my justification. However. I have never seen a catholic who actually believes this. So can you explain how a catholic believes this? and why you think the people you call protestants do not??
]]> Sat, 04 Sep 2010 21:07:24 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1761 <![CDATA[δικαιόω dikaioō justify, pronounce righteous]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1760
But you are arguing that the passage does NOT deal with initial justification, but some heretofore unexplained future justification, probably after these Romans die and go to Heaven. OK, but you are arguing from silence since nowhere else in the Epistle to the Romans does Paul teach about some future justification that happens once we die.

Let us take some cases from Romans:

3:20, "Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified (δικαιωθησεται)..." Notice, "shall be justified" is in the future tense. Does this mean that this only applies to the future of his audience? That, in the past and present, works of the Law COULD justify? Of course not.

4:24, "but also for us, to whom it shall be reputed (μελλει λογιζεσθαι), if we believe in Him..." Again, Paul is using a future tense -- and including himself in this group. Does this mean that he and his audience HAVE NOT YET had justice reputed to them by faith, but that it will only happen in the future? Of course not.

6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion (κυριευσει) over you." Since this is in the future tense, does it mean that sin DOES have dominion over them now, but only in the future it won't? Of course not.

10:9, "For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him up from the dead, you shall be saved." Is Paul saying that his Roman audience has NOT been saved yet, but that it will only happen in the future? Of course not.

So, when he says in 5:19, "so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just," he does not mean that his audience will be made just ONLY in the future. To me, it is clear that Paul is talking about all of history: in the past, from the time of Adam, many were made sinners by the fact that they were biologically born sons of Adam. But in the future, many will be made just by Christ. He uses future tense since the vast majority of Christians will be justified in the future (from when Paul was writing).

If he were only talking about the people who were living at that time in Rome to whom he wrote this letter, and referring to some justification that will happen after they die, he would have said, "so also by the obedience of one, YOU shall be made just when you reach the end." No. Paul does not only intend that passage for the Romans of his time, but for people of all time, the vast majority of whom will be born in the future. That is why he uses the future tense.

And again, I will bring up my main point which you have not answered: what about the parallelism? Many made sinners by their birth / Many made just by their rebirth. The WHOLE POINT of this passage is to set-up that very parallelism, which you destroy. To you, the passage means: Many made sinners by their birth / Many not made just by their rebirth, but later on after they die. Where is the parallelism?

To that point, here is an example of this error that you make: "From the fall we were condemned accounted unrighteous. In Christ, it is reversed, we are accounted righteous." Can't you see the error? We were not "accounted unrighteous" as you say from the Fall. No! We WERE ACTUALLY unrighteous! But you are right: there is a reversal: if we were actually unrigheous at the Fall, in Christ, we are actually righteous.

That is why Paul describes it as "justification of life" in the preceeding passage (Rom 5:18.) Since we ARE actually made alive in Christ -- not simply reckoned to be alive -- we are, then, actually made just. If we are not made just in our new lives, then the inescapable conclusion is that the "new creature" that God created is unjust. Do you really think that God is the creator of un-righteousness?

What is harder for you to believe, that God makes a dead spirit to be alive, or that God makes an unrighteous man to be righteous? If He can make the dead live, then why won't you believe that He can make the unrighteous righteous -- instead relying on some legal fiction?

This is WAY too long already. I promise I will answer your points about your Bible passages. But I first wanted to stay on this initial point (Rom 5:19) since I don't think it is exhausted.

Peace,

deliveringit

]]> Sat, 04 Sep 2010 19:54:02 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1760 <![CDATA[δικαιόω dikaioō justify, pronounce righteous]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1759 I was furthering the authors point. "Make" is a synonym for constitute e.g
make - constitute the essence of; "Clothes make the man". So is "institute, establish, found, plant, constitute - set up or lay the groundwork for; "establish a new department". God can establish or make us righteous based on the righteousness of Christ. There is no doubt on what the word means, my argument was based on the tenses.

Based on the audience of the book of Romans that Paul wrote to, I cannot accept your polemic. Paul wrote to the Church at Rome instructing them in doctrine, and various other things. These where established Christians. So to write to them who have already initially be justified, he would talk about it in the past tense or present tense.

As an example 1 John: John wrote to believers as an encouragement. Notice how he uses the term born of God ? Past tense. It was not something future for them because they had already been born of God.

That is why I cannot take your position. Paul in taking to believers "Church at Rome" in his day, he would have used "being made just" in the present or past tense, not future tense, as he did. Unless of course, he was really talking about something future in those believers lives. Which is also why he also used the future tense here (Romans 2:12). Judgment for the present believers was also future.

“for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,” (Romans 2:12, YLT)

Since I have responded directly to your scripture, let me then bring a positive proof of forensic justification

“For God indeed
was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them
their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. ” (2 Corinthians 5:19, D-R)

Of course we had talked before about the doctrine of union with
Christ, and us being reconciled to him. Also how all these occur at the
same time Justified, regenerated etc. Notice how this text says' when
he reconciles us to Him, He does not count our sins against us. This is
a forensic legal way of doing so, which is what the protestant affirms.

Which is another reason in the psalms it reads

“To David himself, understanding. Blessed
are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin, and in whose
spirit there is no guile. ” (Psalm 31:1–2, D-R)

All Our sins are covered by Christ, he paid for them in full

“And you, when you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: ” (Colossians 2:13, D-R)

From the fall we were condemned accounted unrighteous. In Christ, it
is reversed, we are accounted righteous. It was judgment in the
beginning, judgment of course implies a declaration of guilty or not
guilty. Therefore in Christ the declaration of judgment is not guilty but righteous.

Loosing our original nature (spiritual death) was also an effect of the fall, however it is not equivocated in the scriptures with (being declared guilty). They both go hand in hand, however they are totally different things. That is why reading into the text "made righteous" / Future tense is not helpful. One thing I have noticed, and it may help you- Paul uses a lot of legal terms and really does not speak as much as one would think he would about being born again (spiritual life). Looking at John he speaks a lot about spiritual life / eternal life, yet he does not speak much about being justified / accounted righteous. Each author in my perspective focused a majority on a certain aspect of the fall. Paul the legal results, John the physical results. Of course that is just my perspective, and what I have seen in their writings. Both the legal, and the physical go hand in hand, but they are still to different things.

Our the righteousness we have in justification is not our righteousness via God making us righteous. But the justification we obtain is Christ's righteousness

“And may be found in him, not having my justice, which is of the law, but that which is of the faith of Christ Jesus, which is of God: justice in faith. ” (Philippians 3:9, D-R)

The same thing is said of Abraham

“What shall we say then that Abraham hath found, who is our father according to the flesh? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God: and it was reputed to him unto justice. ” (Romans 4:1–3, D-R)
Abraham was not made righteous but he was accounted righteous. This again attests to the forensic aspect of being justified.
Adam was our legal representative, hence the second Adam is our legal representative also. In Adam we were condemned, in Christ we are declared not condemned but righteous. There is a difference between imputation, and impartation.
It is not a matter of "as if" we were righteous before God, we are righteous before God, but that is based on the His righteousness declared on us, because He represented us.

Blessings.

]]> Wed, 01 Sep 2010 18:27:31 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1759 <![CDATA[δικαιόω dikaioō justify, pronounce righteous]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1758
Also, the exact same word root "to constitute" is used in vs. 19 referring to sin: "many were made sinners/peccatores constituti sunt multi." So, what are you saying? That "constituti sunt" means "were declared sinners?" But you must admit that we are not merely "declared" sinners, but that we are actually sinners. And Paul is teaching that we were actually made/constituted that way since we sprang from Adam. There's no "declaration" about it! Unless you deny original sin (and Paul's clear teaching here in Rom 5:19), then you must admit that we are sinners before we even commit an actual sin ourselves. This is because we have original sin and are constituted that way. And, we are sinners before God ever declares us to be sinners.

"The English word "made" is a past tense word, notice our word we are looking at is in the future tense." And that is why the Vulgate/DouayRheims uses the future tense: "justi constituentur multi" / "many shall be made just." So, I'm not sure of your point there.

I did answer your question regarding the future tense. But let me say it a different way: If you were talking about some person's initial justification that will happen in the future (since right now that person has not believed in Christ yet), couldn't you say "so and so WAS made/constituted a sinner due to Adam, but he WILL BE justified by faith when he believes on Christ?" Just because you use future tense does not mean you can't be talking about his initial justification. In fact, in this (hypothetical) case, you ARE talking about his initial justification!

Also, Paul does not say "For as by the disobedience of one man, a person is made a sinner: so also by the obedience of one, that same person, if he believes, will be declared just initially, and then later, made/constituted just (at the last judgment)." That, seems to me, is what it would have to say to match what you think it now says. But it doesn't say that.

So, Rom 5:19 teaches that all believers are made just by the obedience of Christ. This is Catholic teaching and directly contradicts Protestant teaching. That is why you should become Catholic: it's Biblical. ;)
]]> Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:16:05 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1758 <![CDATA[δικαιόω dikaioō justify, pronounce righteous]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1757
constituo :
to set up, place, establish, post, station.

constituo :
to arrange, decide, appoint, settle, found, set up.

Which is the same thing as constituted. Notice where we get our English word constituted

Middle English constituten, from Latin c Board Image

nstituere, c Board Image

nstit

t-, to set up : com-, com- + statuere, to set up; see st Board Image

- in Indo-European roots.]

The English word "made" is a past tense word, notice our word we are looking at is in the future tense. If anything it should be translated going to be made or will be made.

That is why young's literal translation translates it as such.

Your response did not give me an answer of why he used the future tense.
Also in your response you equivocated being constituted righteous and being born again.

"Even death/life are not totally envisioned by Paul to exclusively refer
to the future or end of a person's life. We are spiritually dead from
the first moment of our biological births. Likewise, we are
spiritually alive at the first moment of our re-births.
"

There is a distinct difference between having your sins forgiven, declared righteous (justified) and being born again (made alive). In logic they call that the fallacy of equivocation. Which is an error, unless the scripture clearly equivocates. As an example John when speaking about being born again equivocates it with eternal life.

The use of Romans 3:26 was for the purpose of showing the word in the present tense not the future.
]]> Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:58:20 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1757 <![CDATA[Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=28&tpg=4#p1756
It is I who ask you to please bear with me, my tactless use of words, and my 'shotgun' responses. That is not what I intended, but yes, I see what you mean.

So please forgive me if I sound so harsh at times, I do understand the implications of this 'Once Saved Always Saved' doctrine, to me it is as dangerous and damaging as the trinity one.

I will now re-read your comments and make sure I understand clearly what you are saying. Then I will answer.

God bless you for all this good reading. I pray to God through His Son to help us see eye to eye on this and every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God through the Bible.
Odon]]> Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:11:27 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=28&tpg=4#p1756 <![CDATA[Calvary Chapel and the doctrines of grace]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=28&tpg=4#p1755 ariandgabe

Don’t worry about the length. Mine is longer.

I will try to respond to everything you said in the most respectful way, but I must say before I start that I disagree with your approach to justifying your position. This is called the shotgun approach to theology. If one fires off tons of verses in short order and if these verses are read quickly from a certain perspective, then they tend to justify a particular perspective. I will admit this is something everyone interacting with Scripture does from time to time, if they are not careful. The problem with this approach is it does not seriously interact with the individual verses being applied to the topic. It does not take the time to make sure the verses are actually teaching what they are being applied to teach.

Quote From : ariandgabe August 20, 2010, 8:54 pm

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Rev 2:5-6  5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place — unless you repent.  NKJV

This is a commandment to a Church. What does it mean for a Church's lampstand to be removed from its place? This passage does not speak to the destruction of individual Christians in hell, but it refers to the destruction of a Church in a certain town. Since individuals are not in view here, this passage does not relate to the issue of eternal security at all.

Matt 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
NKJV

Thank you my dear Brother in Christ for your kind and elaborate answer, you guys continue to amaze me. Please forgive me for I am slow and I end up writing too much, so please bear with me. Please forgive the coulisses that were left from my abused upbringing.

To your comment above, I understand that the church IS the individuals. And since even a small leaven leaveneth the whole lump, 1 Cor 5:6-8 the churches are warned not to tolerate evil or any false doctrines or else they loose their salvation (lamp stand removed).

First off, Matthew 18:20 does not define when Christ is among Christians or what a church is. Matthew 18:15-20 is talking about Church Discipline. Jesus' point is that when two or three are properly disciplining another in the Community of believers, then Jesus is behind them in the distribution of said discipline. No other application of this verse is reasonable.

Secondly, yes the Church is made up of individuals, but the Church is not the individuals. You need to justify that the Church is the individuals in that whatever is said to a Church is to be individually applied to each and every member inside said Church. I don't think that can be done, and I think it is improper to even try to do it. The sins of a group do not apply to every individual, nor do the sins of the individual particularly apply to each one in a group.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 the Church at Corinth was Chastised for accepting one who was morally apprehensible into the community of believers. Was the community at fault for adultery? No, they were faulted for accepting adultery and boasting about accepting this adultery. Not only that, how did Paul learn about this as to write the letter? Most likely, someone in the Corinthian Church wrote him about this situation. Now, would this person be guilty along with the rest of the general community? No. In this way, there is a disconnect between the individuals who make up a local community of believers, a Church, and that individual Church. This is why I think it is improper to simply assert that the Church IS the individuals that make up said Church.

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1 Corinthians 5:6-8
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

What about this passage references sin or doctrine? It is in reference to BOASTING and the MALICE and EVIL that are derived from said boasting. You said this passage warns Christians

Quote

not to tolerate evil(presumedly all evil) or any false doctrines or else they loose their salvation.

How do you justify this? (1) The passage does not reference false doctrine, (2) is not about not tolerating any evil, and (3) does not talk about any consequences at all let alone losing one's salvation. Now, I disagree with your conclusion, and you may be correct in what your presenting, BUT you are definitely wrong in your application of 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 to justify your conclusion. We need to make sure what we are saying is what the Bible is presenting, or we are just proclaiming our own opinion.

Quote

“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” Why, if the sheep remain sheep and the (wolves, tares) goats remain goats, what’s the use since the works of the Devil has no effect on them?

Now here is our problem (between today’s Church and Gods Word); If this in Rev. means that Jesus is warning a Church of sheep to get rid of the goats and get the sheep back in line, that would be fine. But it is clear the message is to ‘repent’.

Here you are quite correct in your understanding of the Purpose of the Son of God. He came to destroy the works of the devil in those who believe in his name. Let me explain how I see it.

Jesus succeeded and will continue to succeed in this work of destroying the works of the devil. By the power of God, goats, evil men following after their own lusts and desires, aka those who do the works of the devil, are in time transformed into sheep, stupid animals who generally follow but may fall or get lost from time to time. These sheep grow and are molded into beings who sin less and less and glorify God more and more.

Jesus died to take away the sin. Jesus' substitutionary dead on the Cross destroyed the works of the devil in us. "For by a single offering he (Jesus) has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:14 (I don't have the time right now, but this verse is being correctly applied by me to this topic. Hebrews 7-10 are all about Jesus' work of redemption for Christians.) This death's benefit is applied to us through faith. So in the end, Jesus' death purified us forever from the punishment of sin, and God continues to work in us to purify our actions in time until we are glorified. This is all done that in it we might GLORIFY GOD all the more.

By the way, what is so wrong about a Christian repenting? We get off course all the time. "To repent" simply means to Change one's mind or change one's direction. I don't see how this word alone implies one has or will lose their salvation, if they do not repent. After all, it is the nature of sheep to repent to correction, and it is the nature of goats to not change in light of correction. I see repentance as a sign of being a true sheep. I see it as something that comes from being a sheep. I don't see it as being a standard by which one is made into a sheep, and I believe scripture backs me up on this one. Let’s continue onto the other things you said.

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Here is where I see things in a different light;

How can a sheep become a goat? Here is how;

“But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.” 1 Cor 5:11

A sheep will never call a goat ‘brother’. This is a message from sheep to sheep, or Sheppard to sheep.

1 Cor 5:9-13

How can goats leaven all the sheep? 1 Cor 5:6-8

How can dogs become Children of the Most High? Matt 15:26-28

And yet, here you have it.

Ariangabe, you said how does a sheep become a goat and citied 1 Cor. 5:11. 1 Cor. 5:11 is an expressed command to sheep, but what about this command makes you think that not obeying it turns one into a goat? The verses doesn’t reference goats or sheep. The verse doesn’t reference any consequence for not obeying. It simply strongly advises something to be done. There is nothing here about losing salvation.

If anything, the command to not socialize with these “goats” is to bring them to salvation. This is an evangelistic enterprise. Goats have slipped into the community. They believe they are saved when they are not, but their sin has shown them for who they are. Paul is saying remove them from the community so that they might know their error and repent and believe to be saved. Again, nothing in this passage is in reference to Christians loosing their salvation.

To your comment about sheep never calling a goat a “brother”: how did you come to this conclusion? The command in this passage was given because Sheep, true saved Christians, who were calling goats their bothers. Paul commanded them to stop in order that conviction and salvation might come to these goats. Obviously, in this passage, these Sheep remained sheep as they mistakenly calling goats sheep.

You are perfectly correct about how goats leaven the sheep, but what are they leavening them with? Answer: sin. The goats are introducing sin into the community of believers. Such an act should be opposed, but why? Those who deny the eternal security of the believer say because sin leads to loss of salvation and damnation. Those who agree with eternal security say sin causes a relational rift between God and man, and it causes God not to be glorified as he should.

Now, both parties agree to the concerns levied by those who agree with eternal security, but why does the eternal security crown deny sin leads to loss of salvation and damnation? Because, God will keep them secure. I will quickly give three verses two this end. See if you can find anyway around the direct implications of these verses.

1.

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John 10:24-30
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

First off, why don’t these people believe? Because they are not his sheep.
Secondly, what does Jesus give to his sheep? Eternal life, they will never perish.
Why will they never perish? Because Jesus is keeping them in his hand.
Lastly, can anyone snatch them out of Jesus’ hand? No, because they are also in the hands of the Father.
Now, I know this passage has Christological implications also, but it definitely describes both God the Father and Jesus Christ actively, with power, securing the salvation of the sheep. Notice, the sheep have ETERNAL LIFE and they WILL NOT PERISH. Also notice, nothing in this passage implies the flock is required to do anything in order to remain saved. God just keeps them saved.

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Phillipians 1:3-7
I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.

In this passage, Paul is praying for and encouraging those in Philippi. He mentions their partnership in the gospel, partaking of grace, and defense of the gospel. Obviously, Paul is talking to Christians about their walk in Christ.

Now, if one denies eternal security, then Paul encourages them with a strange line. He says “he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” This statement makes perfect sense from an eternal security perspective: God who began a good work in you, who saved you through what Jesus Christ did on the cross, will bring about ultimate salvation, glorification, to you at the day of Jesus Christ. What does it mean for “he who began a good work in you to bring it to completion”? That sounds like a promise from God to finally save those who are currently Christians.

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Romans 8:28-39
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This passage is large and normally ignored by those who reject Eternal Security, but lets look at some stuff.
1. God works out everything that happens in time and space for the ultimate good of Christians. If God is doing this, then does he have the power and/or will to keep a Christian securely saved? Yes. If God is doing this, would God allow any circumstances befall a Christian as to lose AGAIN that which his Son died and paid for? No, v 31-39 makes it perfectly clear that no situation will cause one to lose their salvation. So in light of God’s sovereign will and power to bless and keep safe those who are saved, what in time or space could lead to one’s lost of salvation? Apparently NOTHING. Now, many say in response to this what about the free choice of the individual. Paul doesn’t seem to worry about the free will of the Christian getting in the way. Why should we, but lets move on for the is so much more in this passage.

2. v29-30 is called the Golden Chain of redemption. It includes several acts of God that are involved in saving God’s people. These are foreknowing, predestinating, calling, justifying, and glorifying. According to Ephesians 1:4-5, God’s choice of who would be saved, election, and predestination of all things related to bringing them unto salvation occurred before the creation of the world. God did these things for us before the creation of the world. Calling, God’s work in bringing one to faith, and Justification happens during the lifetime of individual Christians while glorification occurs at the end of the age. God does theses things.

Notice the wording.
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined”. Who were Predestined? Answer: all those who were foreknown. Are there any who were foreknown who were not predestined? NO!
“those whom he predestined he also called” Who were called? Answer: all those who were predestined. Are there any who were predestined who were not called? NO!
”those whom he called he also justified”. Who are justified? Answer: all those who were called. Are their any who are called who were not justified? NO!
”those whom he justified he also glorified”. This is an odd saying. How many have been glorified? None yet save Jesus. Those who are saved will be glorified, but why say this in the past tense? Lets still follow the Logic. Who are to be glorified? Answer: all those who were justified? Are there any who were justified who are not to be glorified? NO!

See, keeping the grammatical structure going emphasizes the fact that all those who are currently saved, justified, will be finally saved, glorified. The conclusion is so strong that one could speak about it as if it has already occurred. Okay, given God’s perfect foreknowledge of all things in history, his sovereignty over all things in history, and his proclamation in perfect Scripture of this chain of redemption, how can there be any doubt about losing one’s salvation? If one is ever justified/saved in this life, then they know they are one in this chain thus securing their final glorification.

I see absolutely no way around this divine proclamation. “Salvation is of the LORD”, and those who are justified at any time in their life will be glorified in heaven.

3. v31-39 continues the theme that NOTHING WHATSOEVER in time or space, in heaven or under the earth, or anywhere else will be able to separate us from our salvation, our love relationship with Christ. And, this is all predicated on God keeping us. We don’t keep ourselves saved. God keeps us saved. God is the one who is FOR US.

I wanted to end this discussion with a potent observation. v39 ends with the words “nor anything else in all creation”. The KJV put it this way “nor any other creature”. Are we not in Creation? Are we not creatures? How can Paul say NOR ANY OTHER CREATURE and the Christian still be able to get in the way of God’s plan and cause the lose of their salvation? I don’t see how man being able to lose his own salvation is a legitimate understanding, if God says through Paul’s pen nor anything on the created order will stop me from saving my people.

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Again, a warning to sheep from turning to goats/wolves. These next verses are to the sheep; ‘Little Children’ not to be deceived. According to once-saved-always-saved you cannot deceive sheep since they are always in their Sheppard’s watch, shielded from harm and safe in the eternal arms of the Great Sheppard!

One quick point of clarification. We do not hold that a sheep cannot be deceived. We believe that a sheep cannot be led away to the point of losing Salvation. Salvation is not such a precarious thing. Christians can sin, be deceived, publicly (although not truly) deny Christ, etc without losing their Salvation. Those types of phenomena are a reflection of the flesh that still lives within our souls. Look at how Paul describes himself as a Christian.

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Romans 7:13-25
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Notice the conclusion of this discussion, “I myself sever the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” The Christian always lives in this state in this world. We will no longer be plagued with the flesh when we are glorified, but until then, we live as saint and sinner with two natures fighting against each other within our souls. We do contend against the sin in us, and when we sin, we are cut to the heart, but NONE OF THIS affects our ETERNAL STATE before GOD. After all, we didn’t save ourselves; it is not our within our power to keep ourselves secure in Salvation.

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1 John 3:7-9
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

Both sheep and goats can sin. God didn’t create men on this earth as wolves, tares, goats! The evil one did that by introducing sin in the world. God created a perfect sinless Adam and Eve. It is when they sinned that they started to die and change to goats. The first to become a wolf was Cain by killing his brother Able.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
By the Son of God both blemished sheep and goats and even dogs can stop sinning, and by repenting they all become in good relation with God through Christ who saves them.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Do you now see? ‘Born of God’ is the transformation back to a sinless life! ‘Born again’ from goats to sheep.

There is a lot in this quote, and there is a lot of it that is correct. To my response:

1) Yes, both sheep and goats can sin.

2) God did not create men to be Goats. He created them all NEUTRAL with a choice.

3) Yes, man fell when he sinned, but when man sinned, he instantly became a GOAT, and goats produce goats. This is who we are NATURALLY. Sinner’s who sin. We sin because we are naturally sinners. We don’t change back and forth due to our choices. We are what we are, goats. After man made his choice in Adam our fates were set. We are what we are, sinners. Doomed goats/sinners who will be destroyed.

4) Wolf and tares are other analogies. Your right that Cain was a wolf, but this is not relevant to our discussion. As the analogies go a wolf is nothing but a goat with malicious intent to harm sheep and a tare is a goat who is pretending to be a sheep.

5) Amen, Jesus, the Son of God, was manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil. Jesus came so that we all might not be destroyed as the goats we are.

6) You said “By the Son of God both blemished sheep and goats and even dogs can stop sinning, and by repenting they all become in good relation with God through Christ who saves them.” This sentence is completely confused and off base. Goats are all those who are lost and are currently not going to Heaven; they are unsaved. Sheep are those who are saved; those who are currently on their way to heaven. Goats don’t repent. Sheep repent. Goats live to sin; they make a practice of sinning; they live to do what they want, sin. Sheep make a practice of righteousness; they follow God; they live for God. Sheep may fall into sin, but they confess their sin and follow God all over again because that is who they are now in Christ. There are two categories of people: sheep and goats. God grants life and gives spiritual birth to the goats changing them into sheep.

Lets look at a few verses through John that express how men become saved. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13) Notice these men came to be God’s Children by God’s will. Those who receive him and believe in his name define the group who are “children of God”, but they came to be Children because they were “born of God.”

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:3,7-8) The analogy here is not sheep and goats; it is of those who are born spiritually or not. The two categories of men are the same. They are just being described by a different analogy. Notice God must act, God must birth someone spiritually in order for them to be saved. If one looks at this through the goat/sheep analogy, then God must change one from a goat into a sheep in order for them to be saved. Notice also there is no telling who God will bless with birthing; the Spirit births Christians where it wishes.

“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6: 29,36-40) Notice even belief is God’s work in us. Jesus Gives us life. This life is eternal. It does not require more bread or water to sustain it. It is eternal. Notice also who gets this eternal life. Those who are given from the Father to the Son. Being given defines who is saved. Being given defines who believes, who follows, who practices righteousness. These are given eternal life and will never perish. Jesus will raise them up. THEY ARE SAVED FOREVER; THEY WILL BE IN HEAVEN. All of Salvation is in God’s hands, not ours. We are not but GRATEFUL RECIPIENTS of his Grace. Lastly, notice that no one who is not drawn or given can receive these benefits.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” (John 6:53-58) Notice the emphasis on ETENAL LIFE. Whoever eats “HAS ETENAL LIFE.” They will be raised up on the last day. Are these statements a lie? Can one feed on this bread and not live forever? Can one HAVE ETENAL LIFE yet perish?

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:44; 60-65) This is the conclusion of John Chapter 6. Notice who gives life; notice who grants life.

By the time we get to John 10 Jesus is referring to those who are saved as sheep. The sheep vs. goats analogy comes from Matthew 25:32-33. “Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.” This is referring to the end of the ages. The sheep are those who were saved. The goats are those who were cast into hell.

7)You are correct in that if one repents, believes, then they will be saved. They will be in a right relationship with God. But, being in a right relationship with God, being saved is being a sheep. See how your statement is somewhat confused?

8) You are correct in that born of God is the transformation from being a goat into being a sheep, but you are incorrect to think being born of God is the making of one to be literally sinless in this life. Lets look at a better translation of 1 John 3:7-9

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Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Notice the focus on practice. This is to relate the concept of the action that defines what one is in this life. If one’s life is defined by sinning, ie not living for God, then they are are of the devil. If one’s life is defined by pursing righteousness, then they are of God. v9 basically says those born of God live a life that reflects that reality. They don’t sin as they did before; they purse righteousness. Why do they do this? Because, God seed abides in them. The Holy Spirit “who is the guarantee of our inheritance” (Eph. 1:14) is that seed. He insures we will abide and not continue to sin as we did.

By the way, did you consider that the one who is born of God is not ABLE to keep on sinning. It does say “he cannot keep on sinning”. If one who is born of God is not ABLE to keep on sinning, then how can they lose their salvation by sinning? I see v9 as a promise that the Holy Spirit living within me will keep me from losing my salvation because of sin. I don’t see anything here that makes me think I can lose my salvation.

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Now if you say that sheep cannot sin, beware:

1 Cor 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits." If you are a ‘Once Saved Always Saved Trinitarian’ you would respond to this; ‘yeah right! I’m a sheep and can do no wrong. I can celebrate pagan holydays like Christmas with Santa and his demonic elves, the goddess Easter with her fertility bunnies and her painted eggs that represents the birth of the universe, kill my own Christian Brother in war, sue them in the Godless courts judged by Godless judges, yes, I can do anything I want, even abortion is not really a sin since it is the law. In Romans it says; I have to ‘give unto César what is Cesar’s and unto God what is Gods. The earth is Cesar’s and God ordained him as ruler, I am obliged!’

Dear Brothers in Christ, look at this and ask yourself if this next comment to sheep or to the goats?

1 John 1:8-10

It is to us all, Jew (lost-sheep) and Gentile (goats/dogs) to “confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Again, should a sheep fall away and turn back to his old sinful self (goat) after all the warnings, we are given this;

1 John 2:1-2

What is that; “… and not for ours only but also for the whole world”? Can Jesus turn the whole world of; wolves, goats, bad fish and tares into sheep? Yes, for we know that is why the Son of God came;

1 John 3:16-17

So, from sheep (Adam) we became goats (Cain) and went downhill to Noah where the whole world was goats and wolves and yes, dogs where God destroyed them. But after the flood things went back to their old ways, sin ruled once again.

But you know the rest, how God brought the whole world back to Himself through His Son, yes even the common like the dogs and the goats;

Acts 10:10-16

And friends, who are we to call ‘what God has cleansed common or unclean?’

And finally:

Matt 13:47-50

This sums it up. The sea is the world and the fish represents the people of the world. They all heard the message (cleansed), they all had a chance to ‘be born again’ (transformed) from being evil (goats, wolves, dogs) to a new life as good sheep. But sadly the hearts of many of them remained hardened to the cleansing and kept their traditions, their idols, their man made rules and laws, and they remained ugly and unusable fish and so the angels will separate the wicked from the just and cast them into a furnace of fire.

This is not about fish, are fish good and evil? This is about what we do, whether we become good or evil, a goat or a sheep, or become so evil that God calls us dogs and wolves. But we better change to good by repenting, so when the angels come with their net and reap the earth, we will be thrown in with the good fish and not to be burned with the wicked.

So as it is written, Adam sinned, and his son Cain sinned even more and from there man snowballed downward to a point they were no more sheep from Gods flock but became like ravening wolves, dogs wallowing in sexual immorality, lust, passion, greed, hate and murder. They became from children of God (sinless) to the children of the devil (sinful). But God planned a new rebirth for us, and through His Son Jesus Christ we can transform from even dogs to Christ’s sheep.

No offense, but this entire section is very similar to the last section. It contains some truth, it has some of the same mistakes as the last section, and it doesn’t really interact with Perseverance of the Saints. I can’t speak to everything so I will let what I have already said stand.

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1 John 3:20-22

In the above verse we are not sheep because God made us to be sheep, it is because we ‘keep the commandments’.

I did what to interact with this comment. I will admit that there is a one to one relationship between those who are saved and those who keep the commandments, but there is nothing in this passage or any other passage that says that men are saved, are sheep, are good fish, etc. etc. etc. by keeping the commandments. Remember Paul’s discussion of this topic in Romans 4.

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Romans 4:1-9
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Justified means to be declared righteous. It means to be saved. We are justified by faith, NOT BY WORKS. It is not WHAT WE DO that saves us. It is WHAT CHRIST DID. Neither are we given this benefit because of what we do. We are saved by Grace. We are Saved by Grace through Faith. If our works are involved in make ourselves worthy, then Paul was lying to us when he said “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10)?

If works play any part in our salvation, then we have something to boast about. If there is anything in us, in what we do, that qualifies, merits, or conditions us as worthy to be saved as opposed to others, then Salvation is not by grace, it is not a gift. It would be by merit, by works. Do you see how this concept flies in the face of what Paul taught? Not to mention, it is not found in any Scripture.

Paul’s overarching argument is we have all sinned. Therefor, any works done by us are not able to save us. We are condemned already in John’s words(cf. John 3:18). That is why we need grace. Remember the STANDARD for Salvation is PERFECTION(cf. Matt 5:48). Unless one is perfect in all they do throughout their life, they will be found guilty before God. One who believes on Jesus will be covered with Jesus’ righteousness—A righteousness that is found apart from the Law(Rom. 3:21-22). This righteousness is by Faith, apart from works of the Law(3:28).

Seriously, you need to read Romans, and I mean in one sitting. You need to read what Paul thought is the Gospel. Read it like a book. It was designed to be read aloud to a Church. Read it out loud, if you need, but read it in one sitting and simply listen to what Paul is teaching. Don’t try to integrate what you hear/read into what you believe. Who cares what I believe or what you believe? The true question is what does the text teach. What is Paul teaching those in Rome? I know he is not teaching one must do good in order to be saved by Jesus. He teaches one is saved by Jesus in order that we might do good in order to praise God(cf Eph 2:10).

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1 John 5:18

Again, ‘born of God’ is a change from goats, dogs, sheep that are blemished to sheep without blemish and the wicked one cannot touch us.

1 John 1:6-7

See, the whole Bible is about change to good, a rebirth, then to be aware not to fall back to sin and be eaten by the serpent that dragon of old, for we are not ignorant of his ways. If from perfect Adam man can turn into goats and dogs and then through Christ become sheep again, what makes you think that we cannot regress from sheep back to that sinful nature and become Satan’s servants; dogs and wolves again? Satan would love you to think that once saved you are ‘safe’! Please Brothers in Christ don’t close your eyes and fall asleep like this, wake up and ‘hold on to, guard what you have’!!!!

“What makes you think that we cannot regress from sheep back to that sinful nature and become Satan’s servants; dogs and wolves again?” Because God the Father and Jesus Christ keep us secure in their hands cf. John 10:30.

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1 Tim 6:19-21

If you think that we are not to fight every day a good fight to remain sheep, then you have fallen asleep a long time ago my friend and Satan already got you. Wake up!

1 Tim 6:12-16

For now till That Day of our Lord we must fight to remain sheep. As long as WE remain sheep, Jesus the Good Shepherd will keep us safe. Brother, the entire New Testament is written for us Believers, us Sheep to warn us, reminding us to beware of turning. It is NOT to unbelievers.

Jesus sent us to tell the Good News to the unbelievers so those that hearken to our voice can turn to the Bible and believe in Him who sent us. THEN and only then is the Bible to them, after they turned from dogs and goats to sheep. Jesus doesn’t keep an eye on the world, to keep them safe, but He does keep an eye on us, to keep us from danger. If there was no danger for us sheep, why all the warning?

But if you listen to man made doctrines that tell you once your in your in, and that now that you’re a Christian, you need not worry because it wasn’t your choice anyways, that it was Gods choice before the creation, and there is no way you can loose this prize, and if you believe that there is no way for a sheep to become a goat, then Satan has put you to sleep already. You are like the five Foolish Virgins who thought that their intellect instead of Gods Word will last them until Jesus comes, but realized that their intellect and their trust in men’s doctrine is not quite enough to last late into the night. The Groom tarried, and their intellect ran out of oil and when they were awakened to the Grooms coming, they panicked. Don’t let this happen to you my dear friend. Get the oil that lasts endlessly given by the Holy Spirit and your lamp will never go out.

I have a feeling that Satan has also told you that you can fight it out with guns at Armageddon, good verses evil, and just before evil kills you, you will be raptured out of here, right?
How many great Martyrs went gloriously to their death? Dying for the Lord is the most glorious reward that can be bestowed upon a Christian. Why would God want us to shoot it out with the evil, to kill as many as we can when Jesus made it clear that we are to love those that hate and persecute us? Where do Christians get this brutal counter-attack against the army of the anti-Christ? With all the cross-fire, you are sure to kill many innocent who still have a chance to repent. But hey, we’re Christians and cannot do any wrong, and when things get rough, or when the enemy is about to capture us, Christ zaps us out of here leaving planes and cars crashing into everyone.

Makes a good book and a good action movie, and even a great PC Game, and the world loves it. But it is a deception of Satan of the worst kind. This is almost as bad as Christmas and Santa replacing Christ in Christian hearts. May God open your eyes.

“Yes Christian” Satan whispers; “you have nothing to worry about, since once you’re saved you can never loose it. Yesssss … Christians are not perfect, they’re just forgiven. So go on and live it up, have your sport idols, your American Idols, your rock-star idols, your tree idols and all the pagan idols. Hey, if they bother you a bit, just add Christ and mass to it, (both holy words) before the Tree, and presto you have a Christ-mass-tree!

You can go on killing other people in countries your President invades unfairly, even if they’re Christians. Serve your government and you shall serve God. Vote dear Christian, if nothing else, vote between two evil and ungodly President runner-ups, I mean its better to have the lesser evil to tell you you’re no more a Christian Nation, that you are no longer to mention the name Jesus in public. After all, remember that it was God who put up this government, Sadam, Bush, Hitler, Mussolini, Arafat, all Gods servants, remember? So don’t worry, your hands are clean Christian.”

Satan even says; “Hey Christian, confused when your actions contradict the Bible, no problem. Filter it through the Trinity Doctrine I gave you. You will get so confused that it won’t matter who you worship. Once you are blinded, none of that really matters anymore. Just use mumbo-jumbo like all my other ministers (not talking about you guys here, you are very intelligent and know your Bible, only you filter it through doctrines of men). Wing it and use a lot of scripture quoting, (TV Ministers) that gets them every time since everyone is afraid to go against Gods Word.”

No my friends, first we (dogs goats) gentiles are to be born again into sheep, and only then are we shepherded by Christ. This is when these verses come alive for us;

Matt 18:12-14

God loves to find lost sheep. When sheep get lost, they cry. If a sheep is headed away from the fold without crying, he’s looking for another fold with another shepherd, or is on a mission like the Prodigals son. The Shepherd will not leave the rest to go wondering aimlessly looking for I don’t know what. The sheep and the son have to make a turn back, and if he gets lost, must cry out before the Shepherd will run to it in joy. The story cannot be interpreted with any other meaning.

God bless you all, please think this through. The end is so near, the ‘abomination of desolation’ has been standing there front of the whole world, and Christians are looking for it in the future! The anti-Christ, the real deal man who claims to be in the place of God has been here for a long time too. Why are we talking and arguing about basic principles like idols, and whether we can loose our salvation or not? We are to eat meat and yet we can barely drink milk. Come on dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, lets move on, midnight is upon us and I can hear the Bridegroom coming. Can’t you?

In Jesus name
Odon

P.S.

How can Christians be satisfied with being a Baptist, a Calvinist, a Jehovah’s Witness, Catholic and so on, and not see the danger of this division? There is ONE Church and the members be in one mind in it. When one wiser reveals something the other did not know, they all accept it with great joy, not as we have it now, saying with content: “Well, that’s how you understand it, and this is how I do, but that’s O.K. you have your views and I have mine. We all worship the same God, and that is the most important.”

NO. The Spirit teaches us all with the same understanding. There is no doctrine for the Baptists and another for the Presbyterians and another for the Catholics. We must all believe the same thing about every subject. There are no two roads that lead to Paradise, the Kingdom of God, only ONE. 1 Cor 3:1-4

The rest of this reads as a sermon. I disagree with a lot of it, but I don’t believe it would be particularly productive for me to respond to all of it. I would like to say a couple of things.

1) I have a great amount of doubt for the concept of the rapture too.

2) I don’t know how close we are to the end. Every generation fancied itself as the last, but you may be correct. We just don’t know.

3) I don’t see concepts like Christmas as particularly sinful. If we simply keep Christ in mind, I don’t see how celebrating Christ’s birth by congregating with the Church and with family once a year matters.

4) I don’t like most of what goes on around Easter—eggs and bunnies. But, I see no reason not to celebrate our risen Lord at Church.

5) Lastly, we are not satisfied with labels like Baptist, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Reformed, Methodist, etc. I am a Christian. That is what I am. If you wish for a more detailed description of what I believe, then I will add the qualification Baptist because I believe that Adult, Believer Baptism is the only Biblical form of Baptism, I will add the qualification Doctrines of Grace, Reformed, or Calvinistic to express my soteriological perspective, and I will add the qualification Evangelical to express my perspective on Scripture. I do this because if one simply asserts that they are a Christ follow or Christian, then the question arises what Kind of Christian. We all consider ourselves to be truly Christian, but that word means little in todays world.

Yes, there should be no divisions, but as long as these divisions exist, we need to put up with them the best we can. One person can do little to truthfully and faithfully remove these divisions. Every time Christians come together to create unity, they either form yet another denomination or compromise Biblical truth, sometimes both. What can be done? Faithfully follow Jesus in everything we do, and let God sort out his Church.

God Bless]]> Thu, 26 Aug 2010 23:50:26 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=28&tpg=4#p1755 <![CDATA[δικαιόω dikaioō justify, pronounce righteous]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1754
Now, Paul is using the past tense / future tense motif as a way of placing us on top of history and seeing the big picture between the old dispensation and the new. I don't think he means it (future tense/past tense) to have any bearing on individual cases. Otherwise, since he talks about death/sin in the past, we would have to conclude that no-one after Paul's time could die or sin, and/or that once an individual is justified, he could not sin/die (in the future of that individual). But even Christians sin. I mean, it cuts both ways.

Similarly, since verse 19 is a parallelism, we must maintain it: Adam/Sin/Death and Jesus/Righteousness/Life. OK. Adam parallels Jesus. Death does refer to the end of the person's life. Likewise, "life" in this context refers to everlasting life in Heaven at the end of the believer's biological life. But righteousness is parallel with sin, not death. So, to learn about the timing of righteousness in this context, we must study the timing of sin.

In this context, sin is referring to the original sin that all men have at the beginning of their lives due to Adam. So, righteousness, in order to remain parallel, must refer to the initial justification when a person is born again at the beginning of his spiritual life. If we are not actually righteous at our new birth, then neither are we actually sinners at our biological birth. Otherwise, the parallelism is destroyed.

Even death/life are not totally envisioned by Paul to exclusively refer to the future or end of a person's life. We are spiritually dead from the first moment of our biological births. Likewise, we are spiritually alive at the first moment of our re-births.

BTW, can't help but commenting: your quote of Rom 3:26 is problematic. The Greek does not say "declaring him". Rather it says, "justifier" or "who justifies". The word "declaring" is from the assumption that dikaioo means to declare just.

Peace.
]]> Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:01:05 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=82&tpg=1#p1754 <![CDATA[Divine Innumeracy: 3 days = eternity?]]> http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=31&tpg=16#p1753

Quote From : philstilwell May 9, 2010, 11:07 pm

And here's a primer on rational thought that some of you desperately need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjDT4kpNzDk

Dear Phil, now that youtube video was shallow-mindedness at its best. It interprets Christianity through doctrines made up by men and not by Gods Word the Bible. Not only that, it considers the doctrines of Catholicism, Mormonism and so on as if they were Christian.

A much better movie is Bill Mahers 'Religulous', at least you get some good laughs. (it too is on youtube for free)

All these movies like the above and that one I believe it's called Zeitgetz (or something like that) try to mock Christianity, but fail miserably.

As the others have told you here, you should study the Bible more, if you're going to attack its doctrine. But then, maybe you do study it, but it is a closed book for you. The Bible is interpreted to each Christian by the Holy Spirit. Gods Spirit joins our spirit and we start to understand what the Bible teaches. There are no 'two' interpretations, only ONE that comes from ONE GOD, the Father of the Only Begotten Son who is The Word of His Father. This is why you can argue on and on till kingdom come, you're rubbing elbows on the same road, that wide road.

I know, almost all Christians filter Gods Word through this 'trinity doctrine', and they sound pretty bad on some important subjects, and turn to idolatry, and even kill their fellow Christians in war, thinking that just because the Pope, or their Ministers of their church blessed them and the congregation prays for them, it is O.K. to kill.

So really, you are no more farther then they are. Have fun playing with them, and don't worry, they cannot convince you since you're both on the same track.

It is sad though, most of the Bible they interpret through Gods Word as is given, but then they get into this trinity stuff and then everything becomes dark and confusing. And they know who is the father of confusion, yet remain blinded.

I pray for you too my friend, maybe you could come to understand the Bible as Gods Spirit teaches. Please give it a try just one more time Phil, I ask you with all my heart. Don't listen to no man made doctrines, just sit down in a nice quite place, clear your mind, and pray; "Lord, let me understand your Word as YOU want me to understand." and read the Bible as if it's the first time you read it.

I know this much, if you really do that with a true hearts intent, God will reveal to you things that todays Christians cannot possibly understand. You will get to know God as a person, not a result of some pluralistic beings.

I ask in Jesus name, please give it a try. You have nothing to loose but eternity in heaven to gain.]]> Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:30:30 GMT http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/index.php?tid=31&tpg=16#p1753